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Latest post 03-04-2008 04:46 PM by natescape. 15 replies.
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  • 04-25-2007 10:55 PM

    • Rich
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    • Joined on 10-12-2002
    • Cincinnati, Ohio
    • Posts 4,860

    Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    Jet bio-fuel partners
    Virgin Atlantic, which ordered 15 787s on Tuesday, will partner with Boeing to develop a bio-fuel for commercial jets.

    EVERETT - In announcing its order for 15 of Boeing Co.'s fuel-efficient 787 jets, Virgin Atlantic also said Tuesday it would team with the planemaker to develop a bio-fuel for commercial aircraft.

    The order for 15 of Boeing's 787-9 Dreamliners, worth $2.8 billion at list prices, is the largest request from a European carrier for the 787 to date. Virgin also took options for another eight 787-9s and purchased rights for another 20 Dreamliners in a deal worth up to a total of $8 billion.

    Boeing estimates its Dreamliner will use 20 percent less fuel per passenger than planes of similar size. Boeing had earlier listed the order on its Web site, but had not disclosed the customer. "This revolutionary aircraft will bring a step change to the industry, substantially reducing environmental impact and incorporating innovative design and advanced technology, while providing an enhanced flying experience for our passengers," Steve Ridgway, chief executive officer for Virgin Atlantic, said in a prepared statement.

    Boeing executives and Virgin Atlantic Chairman Richard Branson announced the orders and the partnership at a news conference. They said they hope to launch a test flight of a bio-fuel-powered 747 in the next year. Officials at both companies declined to comment on the value of their investment in the bio-fuel project, which follows a similar airline industry initiative. "We look forward to finding and testing alternative fuels and developing and implementing solutions that will reduce emissions both in the air and on the ground," said Boeing Chief Executive Officer Jim McNerney. 

    more 

  • 04-26-2007 12:24 PM In reply to

    • natescape
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    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    Sweet! We get the airlines on board and biodiesel gets waaay more exposure/use.
  • 04-29-2007 10:50 PM In reply to

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    Netscape, the new 787 doesn't burn Bio anything. All Virgin is doing is testing a single 747 sometime next year with some undisclosed bio fuel mix.  The test will be performed in conjunction with Boeimg and GE

     I know it cannot be Ethanol, but I do not think it could be bio-diesel because of the extreme cold temps involved at altitude and the gelling effects associated with it.

    Dereck In Texas
  • 04-30-2007 11:54 PM In reply to

    • dmog
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    • Joined on 05-01-2007
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    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    Fuels tested will not be specific to a plane, rather the blends are aiming to meet the Jet A specification.  If the spec is meant, the plane doesn't matter--any engine, any plane will work.

    B747 was chosen owing to the land based equivalent of the GE CF6, known as the LM2500, has been fueled on B100 for several years in commercial service on a fleet of ships that use these gas turbines.

    Therefore, certain parameters are known per the CF6, but not all.  

    There are now 11 fuels in the offing, and each will be tested for ability to meet the spec.  
    at blends, probably ranging from 20-40%.  The biofuels currently under consideration range from FAME, to hydrotreated oils, with BTL as a possibility.


  • 09-04-2007 04:12 PM In reply to

    • natescape
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    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    More info about this.

    Boeing, partners in search of right biofuel

    BY ANGEL GONZALEZ

    Seattle Times

    Once reluctant to believe that alternative energy made any sense in jet airplanes, Boeing now ponders how to take the biofuels revolution off the ground.

    The world's largest planemaker is working with fuel developers from around the world to find the holy grail of alternative fuels: one that will shrink jet flight's substantial environmental footprint without requiring an overhaul of the world's existing airplane fleet.

    "Two years ago, we were quite skeptical of this whole area, because we thought there were too many challenges," said Bill Glover, environmental strategy director for Boeing's commercial plane division. "Then we started to see a few things we hadn't seen before, people entering the field looking at alternatives, all kinds of feedstock."

    Sometime next year, the company, in partnership with Virgin Atlantic and enginemaker GE Aviation, plans to fly a biofuel-propelled 747.

    The company is testing biofuels from different origins, ranging from soybeans -- a well-established source of biodiesel -- to algae.

    The perfect compound would help stave off global warming without compromising the industry's growth.

    "The first big step is to have a fuel that will go into today's airplanes and today's infrastructure seamlessly," Glover said.

    But it's not an easy task. First, unlike ethanol, the ideal fuel would need to pack the same energy punch that fossil fuels do. Second, it must remain liquid at the low temperatures that surround an aircraft in flight -- biofuels tend to solidify more quickly than their fossil-derived equivalent.

    Third, producing it in quantities to feed jets' enormous appetite must be environmentally sustainable -- which bodes ill for fuels derived from land-hungry crops such as soybeans.

    There's hope, though, in futuristic crops such as algae, Boeing executives say.

    A Seattle-to-Washington, D.C., flight consumes 29 gallons of jet fuel per passenger, says Boeing. That would require a half-acre of soybeans.

    "You would have to plant an area the size of Florida with soybeans to provide a 15 percent blend of jet fuel" for the whole U.S. aircraft fleet, said Dave Daggett, who heads energy and emissions research at Boeing Commercial Airplanes' product-development unit. "Clearly that's not going to be appropriate."

  • 09-05-2007 09:45 AM In reply to

    • CAT man
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    • Joined on 09-08-2006
    • Peoria, Il
    • Posts 43

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    This new fuel will most likely come from a biomass source, gasified, and then processed into hydrocarbons, to produce a fuel that is very chemically the same as Jet A. There really needs to be a new definiton for fuels maded from biomass other than calling them biofuels/biodiesels.
  • 09-06-2007 12:36 PM In reply to

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    natescape:
    "You would have to plant an area the size of Florida with soybeans to provide a 15 percent blend of jet fuel" for the whole U.S. aircraft fleet, said Dave Daggett, who heads energy and emissions research at Boeing Commercial Airplanes' product-development unit. "Clearly that's not going to be appropriate."

    There lies the problem for any meaningful BD production to be taken seriously. Other sources state:

     

    If all the US farm land were converted to growing BD crops it would only supply about 6% of the total current US Demand for diesel fuel. That is hardly even a supplement and a drop in the bucket. If this were done not only would we still need to import oil, but would have to import food. Not going to happen

     

    Not to mention how far short if the US consumer were to even start to buy light diesel powered vehicles for transportation. As of now light diesel passenger vehicles in the US only amount to less than 1% of the fleet as compared to some place like Germany @ 35%.

     

    Dereck In Texas
  • 09-06-2007 12:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    A couple of things: Soybeans for biodiesel, much like corn for ethanol, are poor feed stocks and are just stepping stones for the industry to get things off the ground.  In the end, much better feedstocks (rapeseed, algae, whatever) will significantly alter the needed land area calculation.

    Second, the ultimate solution needs to come from many directions; just replacing our current energy sources isn't going to be enough.  In the US, the whole paradigm of transportation needs to change, including how we plan our communities, to reduce the amount of energy we're using.  

    Todd 

  • 01-29-2008 06:31 PM In reply to

    • natescape
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    • Joined on 01-14-2002
    • Between Providence and Cape Cod
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    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    Looks like they're doing a test flight in February! Link here. 

    Green Living: Virgin Aims for More Earth Friendly Flight

    Written by Karen Palmer 01/28/2008

    Virgin Atlantic 747 Cubbie_n_Vegas via FlickrWe’ve already covered some of the steps commercial airlines are taking towards being more environmentally friendly. Carbon offset programs and investing in newer, more fuel-efficient aircraft are just a few of the initiatives being taken by domestic and international airlines.

    In the push to make airlines more eco-conscious, Virgin Atlantic is upping the ante with an upcoming biofuel test flight.

    Virgin, which has always been a leader in the responsible travel charge, is making news again with an upcoming test flight of a 747 powered by biodiesel fuel. The flight, which will occur without passengers, will take place in late Feb. and will run from London to Amsterdam. Boeing and GE Aviation have partnered with Virgin on the flight.

    So what’s the buzz about biofuels? Simply stated, biofuels are made from photosynthetic plant sources. These fuels are seen as a more eco-friendly alternative to traditional fossil fuels because they burn “cleaner” and therefore produce fewer carbon emissions.

    There is, however, some concern that unless biofuels are produced in a sustainable manner, they may not live up to the eco-friendly reputation that precedes them. Fuel sources such as palm oil have come under attack, as forest-clearing that could take place to create new palm plantations has its own negative impact on the envirnoment. Jatropha, a genus of plants native to Central America, has been proposed as a more environmentally sound source for biodiesel fuels.

    According to an article in the New York Times, Virgin is ensuring that the biofuel being used for the upcoming test flight comes from a “very sustainable source” that does not compete with food or fresh water sources. The aircraft will use a mixture of biofuel and kerosene.

  • 01-30-2008 07:03 AM In reply to

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    This is probably a bigger deal than most people would think.  For all the work people can do to reduce their carnon footprint, one flight across the country (or across a large ocean) can pretty much negate all of their efforts.

    Todd 

  • 02-07-2008 10:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    This type of fuel is more sophisticated than simple methyl esters or biodiesel.  First, it is from a biomass source like fats, oils or carbohydrates.  The chemical processing requires much heat and pressure, well beyond the biodiesel ranges, more like a petroleum refinery.  And the makers of this type will be large chemical concerns.  Not the fuel for backyard types.

  • 02-25-2008 04:02 PM In reply to

    • natescape
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 01-14-2002
    • Between Providence and Cape Cod
    • Posts 4,979

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

     They completed their first flight. Link here.

    Biofuel takes flight with Virgin Atlantic

    Virgin Atlantic Airways flew a 747 from London to Amsterdam on Sunday powered in part by a biodiesel made from tropical oils.

    The fuel used by the plane is a combination of regular kerosene-based jet fuel and a biodiesel from Imperium Renewables composed of babassu oil and coconut oil. Babassu comes from a tree in Brazil. In fact, 80 percent of the fuel consumed by the plane was kerosene-based. Only 20 percent of the fuel used on the flight came from plant oils. Still, it's a first, says Virgin.

    The oils came from existing plantations, Imperium said. No modifications were required to the plane's engines.

    Biodiesel is similar to regular diesel, but instead of being processed from fossil fuels it is made from plant oils. Biodiesel gets slightly lower mileage than regular diesel, but it spews far less polluting compounds into the air. It is also carbon neutral in that the carbon in the fuel comes from plants that are already on the surface of the Earth, which had sucked carbon dioxide from the atmosphere when they were growing. Fossil fuels are said to add carbon because they unlock molecules that have long been buried.

    Although less polluting, biodiesel generally also costs more. In the U.S. the federal government offers subsidies ranging from 50 cents to $1 a gallon to biodiesel refiners. Carbon regulations, however, will likely make alternative fuels like biodiesel more economically attractive in the future.

    Imperium has also cut deals with cruise ships to use biodiesel. Besides tree oils, Imperium is also experimenting with algae-based biodiesel with a company called Solazyme which could be cheaper. (Imperium last year opened up a 100 million gallon a year refinery. It also switched CEOs and delayed an IPO.)

    Meanwhile, Richard Branson, he of the Virgin empire, has been investing in green start-ups.

  • 02-25-2008 06:46 PM In reply to

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    Funny, all the HYPE about it being Algoil, and it turns out to be cocconuts. Guess there wasn't enough test tubes of algea laying around.

    Dereck In Texas
  • 02-28-2008 06:26 PM In reply to

    • natescape
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    • Joined on 01-14-2002
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    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    Branson says he plans to algae.

    Branson and Boeing agree, which is why they're spending a lot of time and money investigating algal fuels. Billy Glover, Boeing's head of environmental strategy, says "algae looks very promising." Branson says Virgin used coconut and babassu oil for the test, but commercial fuel will almost certainly be derived from algae.

    "Our search for a fossil fuel replacement does not end today," he says. "(But) today's flight will prove a different type of fuel can be used."

     

  • 02-28-2008 07:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    What many detractors are overlooking is how complex and cautious any attempt to find and use a replacement for commercial jet fuel must be.

    Agoil biodiesel is one of the best possibilities among biodiesels due to the simple fact that it will tend to have better cold weather characteristics than most other forms of biodiesel.

    But regardless of theoretics, airlines are only going to use algoil biodiesel, or any other specific alternative fuel, if and only if a reliable supply in both the needed quantities and of the required quality is available.

    No matter how one feels, the reality is that there is no such supplier of algoil biodiesel yet.

    Therefore, the airline industry must keep testing a wide variety of alternatives.

  • 03-04-2008 04:46 PM In reply to

    • natescape
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 01-14-2002
    • Between Providence and Cape Cod
    • Posts 4,979

    Re: Boeing/Virgin Atlantic to work on biofueled 'Dreamliners'

    Now Branson's saying that he's going to start an algae biodiesel company. Link here. 

    Fuel cell shuttle is Virgin air's latest eco-push

    GM partnership adds to biofuel testing and Rolls-Royce efficiency deal

    IMAGE: BRANSON, GM EXEC WITH FUEL CELL CAR
    Virgin Atlantic President Richard Branson, left, GM executive Larry Burns stand by a Chevrolet hydrogen fuel cell car at a news conference Monday to promote an upcoming fuel cell shuttle service for premium passengers.

     

    By Chris Kjelgaard
    Senior editor
    updated 6:54 p.m. ET, Mon., March. 3, 2008

    Buoyed by the success of its history-making flight last week of a Boeing 747 partly fueled by biofuel, Virgin Atlantic Airways is embarking on a raft of initiatives and partnerships aimed at promoting global responsibility towards reducing carbon emissions and sustaining the environment.

    These include a new partnership with General Motors to trial GM's hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered Chevrolet Equinox vehicles as part of the auto-maker's 'Project Driveway' trial of more than 100 of the zero-emission automobiles in suburban Los Angeles, New York and Washington D.C. From April, Virgin Atlantic will use three Equinox SUVs to provide complimentary ground transportation for its 'Upper Class' passengers at Los Angeles International Airport.

    Another new partnership is with Rolls-Royce, which has won a $2.6 billion order from Virgin Atlantic for Trent 1000 engines to power the airline's future fleet of up to 43 Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner jets.

    As part of the contract, Rolls-Royce will monitor and maintain the 787s' engines throughout their lives to ensure that they always operate at peak performance. But its new partnership with Virgin Atlantic also requires Rolls-Royce continually to research ways to reduce the engines' fuel consumption.

    Meanwhile, through an in-house alternative-fuels company, the Virgin Group itself is pushing ahead to develop algae-based biofuel for use in commercial jets.

    Branson issues warning
    Announcing these initiatives in New York, Sir Richard Branson, founder and chairman of the Virgin Group and president of Virgin Atlantic, issued a stark warning about the consequences of ignoring environmental sustainability and not finding alternatives to oil as fuels.

    "Five or six years from now, there is likely to be a demand for more fuel than there is fuel available," said Branson. The price of oil could well go to "$150 to $200" per barrel, and "the effect on the global economy could be devastating" if business — and particularly the airline industry — isn't in a position to use alternative fuels such as biofuels, he said.

    Admitting his concern that "my great-grandchildren might not have a planet" if global business doesn't embrace sustainability, Branson proclaimed Virgin Atlantic's intention to be the airline-industry leader in the use of biofuels.

    Last week's successful flight of a partly biofuel-powered 747 from London to Amsterdam "was actually a major breakthrough," said Branson. Two years ago, airline industry experts said "biofuel would freeze at 15,000 feet" and that airlines wouldn't be able to use it in commercial jets. Virgin Atlantic quickly proved them wrong, he said.

    "The initial results back from the engines (on the 747 used for the biofuel flight) are very good," said Branson. "The next step" is to produce biofuels that can "truly" replace jet fuel in commercial aircraft. Using algae to do so is the best solution, because it produces "no effect on the food chain."

    Biofuel from algae
    Now, "Virgin Atlantic will move forward rapidly to produce algae" to make biofuel, said Branson. "We're talking to a lot of sewage plants about setting up algae plants above and using a lot of the CO2 coming off those sewage plants" to feed the algae.

    This would create "a double-whammy effect," said Branson: The sewage plants would release far less CO2 into the atmosphere and the biofuels produced from the algae would also release far less greenhouse gases and noxious emissions than jet fuel made from oil.

    Virgin Atlantic will take part in GM's recently launched Project Driveway trial throughout the remainder of the 30-month duration of the tests. After starting using the SUVs in Los Angeles next month, the airline's partnership with GM will also allow Virgin Atlantic to begin trialing them in New York as well. Virgin's trials of the fuel-cell powered vehicles will last throughout the rest of the Project Driveway program.

    By taking part in the Project Driveway trials, "We will be part of the largest fuel-cell test ever," said Branson.

    But while Virgin Atlantic is "constantly looking for ways to reduce carbon emissions at every stage of passengers' journeys, it's not enough, of course," he said. "We would like to see governments (particularly in the U.S. and the UK) build hydrogen filling stations in cities to let people fill up their cars."

    It is no coincidence that Virgin Atlantic is trialing zero-emissions Chevrolet Equinox hydrogen fuel-cell powered vehicles in Los Angeles and New York, said Branson. Each city has a "forward-thinking" mayor and state governor keen to promote the use of alternative fuels.

    Renewable-energy pumps
    "As a first step, we could have renewable-energy pumps alongside regular pumps" at gas stations, the Virgin chairman said.

    The Chevrolet Equinox car that GM is using in the Project Driveway trial employs GM's fourth-generation hydrogen fuel-cell technology, said Dr. Larry Burns, GM's vice president for research and development and strategic planning.

    Just like a conventional automobile, the Equinox can be fully refueled in 5 to 8 minutes, said Burns. It can carry just as much in the way of passengers and cargo, meets all federal safety standards, and boasts "jet-like acceleration," he said. "It really is a real car, and technology has evolved very rapidly in that sense."

    The Environmental Protection Agency has certified the Equinox as completely zero-emissions in terms of carbon and pollutants. Its only emission is water, and that in amounts "rather less" than from an internal combustion engine, said Burns.

    However, he revealed that GM is now developing fifth-generation fuel-cell power train that is half the size of the existing power train for the Equinox and will be even more efficient. The new power train will easily fit into the body and chassis of the Equinox, he said.

    Instead of the situation now, where automobiles are powered by fossil fuels and are controlled mechanically and hydraulically, "we see a future within our grasp where cars are powered by hydrogen and electricity, and they are controlled electronically and digitally," said Burns.

     

     

     

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