BioDieselNow - Renewable biodiesel fuel

bioelektrik:

   Also, it seems like an algal pond or PBR fit the definition of carbon sink. 

Again, its only a sink if you perminately sequester the carbon. If you grow algae then burn algae, there is no sink, just neutral. For there to be an actual sink, you need to perminately remove carbon. Algae does not perminately remove carbon in the scenario we are discussing here.

bioelektrik:

  When you extract the lipids, how is the absorbed CO2 distributed between the oil and byproducts? 

CO2 + H2O + sun light (energy) ----> C6H12O6 (sugar). This is photosynthesis and the most important chemical reaction on the earth. After the plant makes sugar from CO2 (the only source of C the plant gets), the plant bioprocesses the sugar into all the parts of the plant that it needs, DNA, proteins, lipids, cell wall... everything starts with sugar. So 100% of the C within the oil and other byproducts does infact come from CO2 via sugar via bioprocessing.

Ya?

froggy:

CO2 + H2O + sun light (energy) ----> C6H12O6 (sugar). This is photosynthesis and the most important chemical reaction on the earth. After the plant makes sugar from CO2 (the only source of C the plant gets), the plant bioprocesses the sugar into all the parts of the plant that it needs, DNA, proteins, lipids, cell wall... everything starts with sugar. So 100% of the C within the oil and other byproducts does infact come from CO2 via sugar via bioprocessing.

and I guess a follow on question is, of the CO2 that remains in the oil, what percentage is released into the atmosphere when it is burned as biodiesel?

bioelektrik:

  my question is about the distribution of absorbed CO2 - what percentage remains in the lipids, and what part is contained in the byproducts. 

Well to be 100% confident in this answer would be easy, fractionate the biomass into its representative parts and then ultimate analysis the C in each of those 'fractions'. This is a well known procedure and will give you exact #'s. Problems would be to completely fractionate the biomass, cost associated, each spp will be completely different, time of day would be diff, ... We could go on.

An easier (cheaper and I can do it on the back of an envelope this morning) way to do this would be to use the calculations of the BTU content of the biomass based on lipid % vs the weight of biomass. Lets make up some numbers...

Lets say for easy calc's, we have 1 lb of 50% algoil. 50% by weight is going to be oil, 50% everything else.

120,000BTU/gal of oil / 7lbs/gal =~ 17,000 BTU/lb of oil.

1lb of algae x 50% oil = .5lb of oil = 8500 BTU of oil/lb of algae.

1lb of 'green' biomass generally has ~ 8000BTU/lb bone dry x 50% = 4000 BTU /.5lb of 'other' algae.

Thus we have 8500BTU worth of oil/lb and 4000BTU worth of other/lb.

Now it becomes harder... what is the % of C in oil vs % of carbon in all of biomass? The simple calc is to say that oil = (CH)n and 'other' is (CHO)n + ash. 

First lets get rid of the ash by an ugly rough calc of 10% overall weight is in the 'other'. Thus we get 50% oil, 40% CHO and 10% ash.  

Molecular weight of CH = 12 + 1 = 12/13 = 92% C.  Molc weight of CHO = 12 + 1 + 16 = 12/29 = 41%C

The final calc's =

.5lb of oil x 92% = .46lbs of oil C/lb of biomass.

.4lbs of CHO x 41% = .16lbs of other C/lb of biomass.

Ya?

bioelektrik:

  and I guess a follow on question is, of the CO2 that remains in the oil, what percentage is released into the atmosphere when it is burned as biodiesel? 

100%

So does this guy think he has plastic bags patented now? Can I take a plastic bag and weld that serpintine pattern into it and hang it? Or is he going to come after me for patent infringement.

BTW guys I intend to run a test of this type on my property in the next month or so. I am just going to use a wooden frame anchored into the ground with wires.

The test might not be very accurate unless I use lots of bags to show how having them close together effects things.

 Bioelektrik,

But remember, 100% of that carbon came out of the air, so we have added no carbon to the air and we prevented that much carbon being added to the air from petro diesel being pumped out of the ground and adding carbon to the air. 

Every gallon of algae oil is one less gallon of petro diesel and therefore, several less pounds of CO2 added to the atmosphere. 

liberty1:

Bioelektrik,

But remember, 100% of that carbon came out of the air, so we have added no carbon to the air and we prevented that much carbon being added to the air from petro diesel being pumped out of the ground and adding carbon to the air. 

Every gallon of algae oil is one less gallon of petro diesel and therefore, several less pounds of CO2 added to the atmosphere. 

yes, I agree in concept.  As Froggy points out, 100% of the CO2 absorbed in the oil gets released back into the atmosphere when burned as biodiesel. I am trying to get my arms around the net CO2 sequestration of algae produced for oil and how it might qualify in the future for carbon credits (or not).

Wannabealgeafarmer:

So does this guy think he has plastic bags patented now? Can I take a plastic bag and weld that serpintine pattern into it and hang it? Or is he going to come after me for patent infringement.

BTW guys I intend to run a test of this type on my property in the next month or so. I am just going to use a wooden frame anchored into the ground with wires.

The test might not be very accurate unless I use lots of bags to show how having them close together effects things.

There's quite a few references to the baffle design.  Maybe have an attorney look at it, but looks like he's covered his intellectual property in a thorough manner.

bioelektrik:

I am trying to get my arms around the net CO2 sequestration of algae produced for oil

bioelektrik:

  how it might qualify in the future for carbon credits (or not).

Cap and trade or carbon tax would have an impact on the price of algoil in relation to other 'taxed' energy. But unless the tax is big enough, dirty energy out of the ground will always be cheaper because there is not the upfront cost of energy production.

froggy:

bioelektrik:

  how it might qualify in the future for carbon credits (or not).

CO2 from a coal power plant into algae should not get a carbon credit because the C is from Coal.

Cap and trade or carbon tax would have an impact on the price of algoil in relation to other 'taxed' energy. But unless the tax is big enough, dirty energy out of the ground will always be cheaper because there is not the upfront cost of energy production.

Ok so my understanding of the patent process might be a little lacking here. He has lines that say no one else can build a bio reactor out of any type of poly compound. That is freaking nuts!!! He says you can't lay them on the ground horizontally different angles or of course the way he has them arranged vertically. Even before I saw his crap I intended to put a plastic bag on the ground and melt a serpentine pattern into it.

Anyways I don't want to sell his design I just want to use it to make algea and not pay him a rediculous stipend of 1m an acre. I am not sure what I can do it for but I am sure he wants to make ton for thinking of this stuff first.

Please take note that this post is from the other side of the world (in a similar, but different legal system), with a laymans understanding of the patents process.

I think you are correct - his patent is already on pretty weak ground if you can put it together with 2 pieces of plastic and a modified soldering iron. Not having read the patent though, usually it is a little more specific than that for the patent examiner to allow it through, such as a novel hanging device, or the combination of this device with their own strain of algae which is optimised for this growth regime - since your not going to be using their algae but your own, and are coming up with your own locating regime you are hardly going to be precisely emulating their setup.

 That said, you live in the land of litigation, and I don't.

Frankly, I can't see an honest court seriously listening to a patent infringement if you neither tell anybody you are doing it, nor sell the product, and have constructed it at home yourself. Racking it up to DIY ingenuity, and pressing the patents office for registering such a simple device is another defensible position.

Wannabealgeafarmer,

Keep in mind that it's an application, not an approved patent.  Perhaps the powers to be will consider the application too generic and disapprove it as written. 

wannabe

 Why dont you come up with your own damn design.? the guy has a patent and if it was accepted by the patent office then it has merit and you can be prosecuted for patent infringement.. I have patents and  I guarantee you that ill nail anyone that tries to copy them to the fullest extent of the law. in fact I have had an incedent like that and it cost the firm that copied my design thier business and thier professional licences. people like you are why there are patent laws. I think iill;l write those guys and tell them of your intentions.

marc

thier patent seem to relate to a hanging vertical configuration i saw no mention of a horizontal deployment so if you want to lay your poly horizontally down on the ground that seems ok from what i read. Just to be safe i would consult an attorney to see if he  finterprets the clains the same way i did, limited to a vertical configuration

marc

A patent is legal right to exclude others from your claims. But in the real world, a patent is only as good as your ability to secure and prosecute it.

Also, the link is not a granted patent but just an accepted application with some very loosely worded claims. I doubt this gets granted as is and after prosecution, I could imagine the claims narrowed greatly. File date of June 2007 means that it likely wont be granted for ~ 3-8 yrs if ever. This means its patent pending and that anyone has every right inwhich to copy or do whatever they want with the claims made by the inventor until the day the patent is secured. Once secured, the patent holder can sue for license infringements and illgotten profits and damages retroactively.

Ignoring the rants of some people, I would agree with my friend Maelinar when he says,   " Frankly, I can't see an honest court seriously listening to a patent infringement if you neither tell anybody you are doing it, nor sell the product, and have constructed it at home yourself. Racking it up to DIY ingenuity "

Likely the real patent value of algoil is in the algae themselves. And that infringement would be easy to prosecute by DNA.

bioelektrik:

  I am trying to get my arms around the net CO2 sequestration of algae produced for oil 

I was reading their patent application and Vertigro talks about 'CO2 sequestration' but they are using it in a systems term and not on the whole LCA term. Basically they are saying that the CO2 presented to the algae are taken up. They are not accounting for the whole of where the CO2 comes from or where the fixed C goes. Thought maybe that might clear things up.

ecogenics3:

 Why dont you come up with your own damn design.?

I would like to but it appears this guy thinks he is patenting bioreactors in general:

1. An apparatus for sequestering CO.sub.2 comprising one or more translucent bioreactors having a channel therethrough for the continuous flow of a suspension containing algae in the presence of light.

I mean it starts off basically sounding like he thinks he invented bioreactors then it does get more specific, basically now there is a tank attached to the PBR to add CO2.

2. The apparatus of claim 1 further including a culture tank containing a suspension of water and at least one algae, wherein said culture tank comprises a plurality of gas jets for introducing a CO.sub.2-containing gas into said suspension.

3. The apparatus of claim 2 wherein the bioreactor has an inlet located at the top of the one or more bioreactors, each inlet being in fluid communication with the culture tank.

BTW now we can't make make translucent PBR's

11. The apparatus of claim 1, wherein the one or more bioreactors is translucent.

It appear he invented using air to keep the algea alive:

30. The method of claim 25 wherein the gas is ambient air.

I could go on, now that I have read this thing and some of your posts as well as laymens descriptions of patent law, all it would take is finding any of these points in print dated before he apped this.

Hopefully I am just freaking out over nothing, but without cheap poly to build my PBR's out of I have lost all the excitement I have been feeling for the past few months being involved in this great time where real innovation is happening. I won't deny the guy his credit, I certainly don't have a system up and running on the scale he does, but come on this is vague crap for a patent.

If anyone has a deeper understanding of patent law, please chime in. I have been known to rant like an idiot until somebody stops me.

liberty1:

 Bioelektrik,

But remember, 100% of that carbon came out of the air, so we have added no carbon to the air and we prevented that much carbon being added to the air from petro diesel being pumped out of the ground and adding carbon to the air. 

Every gallon of algae oil is one less gallon of petro diesel and therefore, several less pounds of CO2 added to the atmosphere. 

Wouldn't the byproducts, whatever algea mass wasn't lipids that can't be turned into oil and then BD. So if you pull x amount of Co2 out of the air but out of the x only a portion of it will be turned into oil. If the byproduct is tossed out aren't you sequestering that byproduct %?

look, dont be too concerned, the patent office does searches for state of the art and in addition fairly  concies and detailed drawings are required to define the configuration. a general description will not pass muster and a patent pending does not mean its a done deal.. the Japanese have developed an art in plagarizing patents as have the indonesians, indians, and  chinese.

 patent applied for  does not mean that  the device is patented. it means its being processed. something that used to take years but is fairly fast nowadays with computers...as long as you dont hang your system up the way they do,  draw yours up and apply for protection under ther document of disclosure act. also known as" the poor mans patent." also if you have a specific pattern that you think is unique you can copyright it, thats a faster way to protect  something .  look up document of disclosure  statement program U.S. patent office.

 Marc

 you should have "no worries mate"

marc