perotter:

 The system being sold is not a Alternative Fuel system. It is to correct an existing lean condition that is causing detonation. I assume that the blackbox creates a lean condition & then the water injection prevents detonation.

They do bury that info & one must know something about how engines work. It isn't junk science. But it isn't an Alternative Fuel either. I don't believe the % increases that are stated. 

I think you are over-estimating them. They claim that you can run an engine purely on water. They aren't talking about water injection, they're talking about electrolyzing water to make hydrogen (actually "brown gas"), which is then injected into the engine.

andres101:

Ok - Martin thank you for your feedback - someone who understands. My percentage, which stated is the best I have seen from my own experience. I tell people common results are between 10-50% - uh think I heard someone say 25% your in the common ballpark. Your Right it's not directly an Alternative Fuel, but more of an Alternative Energy. If I started speaking to people in scientific jargon from the get go they would just mentally shut down due to having no understanding of what I'm talking about - Most People understand common terms like Alternative Fuel and gain interest.

This forum has a very high percentage of scientists and engineers. Please, feel free to try talking to us in "scientific jargon", so we can see how little you actually know.

Please explain to us, in all the "scientific jargon" you want to use, why the second law of thermodynamics is wrong, or does not apply to this particular device. Please tell us how you can put energy into breaking bonds in water molecules, and when those bonds re-form (when the brown gas is burned), more energy is released than it took to break the bonds initially (and form other bonds, as HHO molecules).

This product is over seen by ClickBank, The largest publisher/merchant account representative on the market. This company would not tolerate being involved with a Scam - worthy note since people like to throw this word around.

Heh heh.

....we have no understanding of thermodynamics ?

Have we ?

It is more than 30 years since I studied thermodynamics - so maybe all of that information is lost.

After having two nights sleep it seems to me that the system discussed here is quite clever. It is true that dividing water in two components and burning them back to water is + - zero. But almost ingenoius is to have the water mixed so well in the reaction chamber. When the water evaporates the gasmix is cooled and the compression ratio increaes. That is the way how a part of the thermal energy is changed to mechanical and the effiencency increases. And very important: the amount of NOx'es decreases.

Does this make any sense ? 

P.S.

Compression ratio increases of course because water expands ( not because the gasmix is cooled )

Nice to have good discussion here ! 

vainolaiho:

When the water evaporates the gasmix is cooled and the compression ratio increaes. That is the way how a part of the thermal energy is changed to mechanical and the effiencency increases. Compression ratio increases of course because water expands ( not because the gasmix is cooled )

In this scheme, there doesn't appear to be an opportunity for no liquid water to form, and hence, no evaporation would be possible. Recall that a gas is being injected, not water. The engine systems I've seen that convert thermal energy into mechanical energy actually inject liquid water, not a combustable gas. More here.

vainolaiho:

....we have no understanding of thermodynamics ?

Have we ?

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the person who started this thread, as his website claims that you can run a vehicle entirely on water (by electrolyzing it into HHO, which is then burned).

After having two nights sleep it seems to me that the system discussed here is quite clever. It is true that dividing water in two components and burning them back to water is + - zero.

Actually it's quite negative, since small-scale electrolyzers have efficiencies well under 50%.

But almost ingenoius is to have the water mixed so well in the reaction chamber. When the water evaporates the gasmix is cooled and the compression ratio increaes.

The system he is selling does not do water injection. It injects "Brown gas" (HHO) made from electrolyzing water.

Water injection is a completely different thing. Yes, water injection does have some benefits, allowing you to run a higher compression ratio, decreasing NOx, etc.. Of course, if someone claimed that it gave a 100% boost in efficiency, that would be nonsense. 

Does this make any sense ? 

Yes, but it is completely unrelated to the "water 4 gas" system.

Mike Briggs:

    Yes, but it is completely unrelated to the "water 4 gas" system.  

  This statement also pertains to Martin's comments.

Water4gas is bunk because of the overall thermodynamics of the system. Injecting straight H2O may or maynot have value. 2 different things.

 

Please let me know where I state that a car can runs 100% on water, obviosly thats not true. This system runs on partial water which you can see the breakdowns of HHO - Browns Gas

Mike Griggs - thank you for stating about 5 -10% best increase in mileage - This tells me that you are a believer the system works and is not a scam. As I said before the common results from water4gas customers are 10-50%, so maybe this system as a whole works better then you may think. Similar systems sale from 1,000 - 1,500 dollars and worth the price. The decision was made to sell the how-to-do-it-yourself books for $97, one part of the books contain information of where to buy all the parts needed at the best price from all over the world. total cost under 200.

Ozzie - the founder of water4gas - sets out a hour a day m-f for anyone who wants to see his vehicle live in action. His address is on his website

It's hard to sell a 1,000 dollar system when people instantly are skeptical, so that's why the system which was once sold as a whole system was transformed into the educational books - which come with a 56 day no questions asked full refund. KNOWLEDGE is truly the only reason that prevents people from Gas Savings.

Yes, I could sit here and repeat what is said in the books - scienitific jargon - but maybe you should judge for yourself. Since MIKE GRIGGS did say that it works to some point, but not as hype up as it may seem, I would think its worth looking more into water4gas

Yawn

andres101:

    Mike Griggs - thank you for stating about 5 -10% best increase in mileage - This tells me that you are a believer the system works and is not a scam. As I said before the common results from water4gas customers are 10-50%, so maybe this system as a whole works better then you may think.

First its Briggs. And second, you have completely confused his statements. I'll quote...

'Increasing the octane to suppress detonation can provide a marginal boost in efficiency - nowhere near the gains claimed on those pages (more like on the order of 5-10% at best), and likely not enough to offset the inefficiency of electrolysis. Hell, the second page linked claims you can run a car entirely on water. It's a shame so many people have no understanding of basic thermodynamics (not referring to you, rather to the people who market these electrolyzed water systems). '

I will paraphrase. Electrolysis = 50% efficient. You may increase your efficiency by 5-10% only by increasing octane. This means its a net thermodynamic loser because 10% gain doesnt make up for 50% loss. And frankly 10 and 50 are more like top end efficient numbers, running systems are much less efficient.

Just so there is no more confusion... I'll repeat, its a thermodynamic loser and thus not an 'alternative energy' but a scam. End of story.

andres101:

Please let me know where I state that a car can runs 100% on water, obviosly thats not true.

The second website you linked, for selling the "water 4 gas" scam (http://convert.water-for-gas.com/), sells plan for "100% water cars": "I've seen water-car plans sold on eBay and other websites from $20 to $189 each. Don't pay $100's for these watercar plans because you will receive this rare compilation of  SIX  TWELVE plans for building your very own water car. I mean, WATER car. No gasoline at all, or in some cases 3% gasoline is used as a cheap alternative to rust-proofing the engine. Still, 97% water is a nice "water car", don't you think?"

Mike Griggs

 

 I don't know any "Mike Griggs"-

thank you for stating about 5 -10% best increase in mileage - This tells me that you are a believer the system works and is not a scam. As I said before the common results from water4gas customers are 10-50%, so maybe this system as a whole works better then you may think.

Let me clarify - the 5-10% increase referred to what you might be able to gain due to higher octane, not factoring in the energy spent doing electrolysis. Further, I would think that you could only see that 5-10% increase if your car is suffering from very incomplete combustion beforehand (which would be a result of some problem in the fuel injection system, such that the small amount of hydrogen*may* be able to improve combustion enough to offset the fuel injection problem). If your car is in proper working order initially, these systems injecting electrolyzed water won't improve your mileage at all, and would likely decrease your mileage, as the energy spent electroyzing water is significantly greater than the energy that you can get from burning the hydrogen (so the only way you can get more energy is if there is a very significant improvement in combustion efficiency (not engine efficiency, combustion efficiency)). Since modern engines generally have combustion efficiencies well over 99%, there really isn't room for improvement there - unless the engine has some significant problem that is resulting in poor combustion.

BTW, Mythbusters tested one of these systems in an episode a while back, and it clearly didn't pass muster.

Similar systems sale from 1,000 - 1,500 dollars and worth the price. The decision was made to sell the how-to-do-it-yourself books for $97, one part of the books contain information of where to buy all the parts needed at the best price from all over the world. total cost under 200.

I wouldn't spend 20 cents on it.

Ozzie - the founder of water4gas - sets out a hour a day m-f for anyone who wants to see his vehicle live in action. His address is on his website

Fortunately for him, demonstrations are easy to fake, and the general public is easy to dupe .

Yes, I could sit here and repeat what is said in the books - scienitific jargon - but maybe you should judge for yourself. Since MIKE GRIGGS did say that it works to some point, but not as hype up as it may seem, I would think its worth looking more into water4gas

Let me clarify for you, since you are having trouble interpreting what I said (and spelling my name) - I don't think it is worth looking into at all. The *only* possible way it could help is if your car has some very serious fuel injection problem to begin with - and you would be better off just fixing that problem (since it is still doubtful that the increase in combustion efficiency with HHO injection into a poorly tuned engine would offset the additional energy spent electrolyzing water).

ebztz:

In this scheme, there doesn't appear to be an opportunity for no liquid water to form, and hence, no evaporation would be possible. Recall that a gas is being injected, not water. The engine systems I've seen that convert thermal energy into mechanical energy actually inject liquid water, not a combustable gas. More here.

That is true - no liquid water is present. But what about steam ?

And what happens in the chamber, when newly formed hydrogen and oxygen are burned together with other gasoline gases. Perhaps there is oxygen in statu nascendi  - very active ?

well.... maybe I'm a dumbA$$.   But I bought the system last week.   Haven't received it yet.   I'll let you know how it goes.   Plan on installing it on my 1995 Dodge Caravan.   Don't know all about thermowhatzjigets, just see if the damn thing works. 

 

George

george cometerbite:

   Don't know all about thermowhatzjigets, just see if the damn thing works. 

 

George

 

That's the right attitude !

(Scientists have calculated that the bumlebee is so heavy, that it can fly maximum 200 yards, but the bumblebee - unknown about science - flies happy many kilometers a day) 

vainolaiho:

george cometerbite:

   Don't know all about thermowhatzjigets, just see if the damn thing works. 

 

George

 

That's the right attitude !

(Scientists have calculated that the bumlebee is so heavy, that it can fly maximum 200 yards, but the bumblebee - unknown about science - flies happy many kilometers a day) 

Yes I agree. That is why I have started selling my perpetual motion magnet machine for 10million$ each. Will that be cash or bank transfer?

vainolaiho:

That is true - no liquid water is present. But what about steam ?

Steam shouldn't be created from a properly functioning electrolyzer, at least not in any amount greater than you normally get due to the vapor pressure of water. Even if there were though, it wouldn't provide the benefits you want from water injection - which is primarily the evaporative cooling of the chamber when the water boils (steam is already in the vapor state, so there wouldn't  be any evaporative cooling), and an increase in pressure due to the water boiling (again - steam is already in the gaseous state).

And what happens in the chamber, when newly formed hydrogen and oxygen are burned together with other gasoline gases. Perhaps there is oxygen in statu nascendi  - very active ?

You get some energy - but less than you spent electrolyzing the water to make the hydrogen (or HHO, regardless of which is made).

Not sure what you mean by "in statu nascendi".

vainolaiho:

(Scientists have calculated that the bumlebee is so heavy, that it can fly maximum 200 yards, but the bumblebee - unknown about science - flies happy many kilometers a day) 

That's a very common urban legend (that science predicts that bumblebees can't fly, or can't fly nearly as well as they should. It's pure hogwash - lift calculations do not show that at all. Yet, this myth continues to be spread whenever anyone wants to disparage scientists - (and is a favorite story of "free energy" folks who like to pretend that we "know-it-all" scientists don't really know squat).

See http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040911/mathtrek.asp

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/March00/APS_Wang.hrs.html

and on and on (google for "bumble bee science myth")

Mike Briggs:

Not sure what you mean by "in statu nascendi".

 

 "In statu nascendi" is latin, and is used in chemistry to explain the state some elements are in, when they have just released their connection with other elements. In this state elements are much better to react with other elements, they change fast, and are much more dynamic than normal.

Mike Briggs:

vainolaiho:

(Scientists have calculated that the bumlebee is so heavy, that it can fly maximum 200 yards, but the bumblebee - unknown about science - flies happy many kilometers a day) 

That's a very common urban legend (that science predicts that bumblebees can't fly, or can't fly nearly as well as they should. It's pure hogwash - lift calculations do not show that at all. Yet, this myth continues to be spread whenever anyone wants to disparage scientists - (and is a favorite story of "free energy" folks who like to pretend that we "know-it-all" scientists don't really know squat).

See http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040911/mathtrek.asp

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/March00/APS_Wang.hrs.html

and on and on (google for "bumble bee science myth")

 

I used this legend in 1993 when I had started my mustard seed oil  test with my field tractor. One "know-it-all" scientist wrote in newspaper about my project and seemed to be very sure that the motor would brake within few weeks.

I wrote back and told that I had the feeling that my tractor runs as happy as the legend's bumblebee.

vainolaiho:

 

 "In statu nascendi" is latin, and is used in chemistry to explain the state some elements are in, when they have just released their connection with other elements. In this state elements are much better to react with other elements, they change fast, and are much more dynamic than normal.

Ionized?

This same thing came up on infopop.

 What do you all think of this one:

 http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/

 Is this the same thing, just better marketed/packaged?

 

People who use these seem to think this does increase MPG's, whatever the reason.  Are they all full of it?

FYI, I have no affiliation to any of this. 

 

Andres - can you describe in detail how you implemented and tested you system?  I am particularly interested in the raw data from your testing.  That is, if you are willing to post it and let us go over it...