BioDieselNow - Renewable biodiesel fuel

Froggy

Algae is a virtually free source of energy. It grows naturally and abundantly all over the world, without help from Man.

Growing it commerically by creating an artificail enviroment in which it will flourish and concentrate does not require that much in terms of capital outlay. It can also be grown by anyone, anywhere, and in a very small area given the know-how.

Solar energy; either as PV panels generating electricity or solar heating via sun-tracking parabolic reflectors is the same, but the capital cost of the equipment is way beyond most people's reach. It also stops working when the sun goes down. Algae can be grown 24/7/365 using PBRs with an adequate source of light with which to photosynthesize

For something that is such a bad idea, algae seems to be getting an awful lot of press coverage, and appears to be the focus of a lot of research at many institutes of higher learning worldwide. There is also a bunch of VC being invested.

Private VC ain't the same as government funding or tax-deductible research grants from industry. These people expect a return on their investment, and will scour your proposal for the slightest flaw before you get the first cent

Anyway, you've taken the discussion totally away from my original point; that being, if the technology exists to use algae as a source of fuel for a modified internal combustion engine, then the extraction of oil from algae need not be a technical block to the introduction of algae as a fast-growing, clean burning source of energy. Don't forget that algae as a fuel source is 'carbon neutral', - they are CO2 breathing, nitrogen-fixing little critters.

For someone who is obviously so dead set against the concept, you seem to exert a huge amount of personal energy in trying to pick holes in other people's ideas/views.

I thought that the title of this forum is "Biodiesel from Algae'; not "Biodiesel From Algae Is A Bad Idea Because Froggy Says So'

There are plenty of holes in your argument. Growing algae is capital intensive because the land mass required to produce enough to fullfill even 1% of our current petroleum consumption is in the tens of thousands of acres and millions of gallons of water. As a grower of botryococcus braun ii, the algae most closely identified as an algae source of very light sweet crude, I tell you even growing enough to fill a test tube is a very long term proposition. Growing enough to fill a 1 qt container, with just the dry algae, will require several square meters of a shallow pond, over many weeks into several months. As I read your post, I do nor preceive from it that you are getting  opinions from your own efforts and experiments, but someone elses published reports. And experience shows all that that is a very slippery slope. Take some time off, grow your own algae and then put into practice what you are suggesting. The reality of doing so will cause you to rethink your opinions. You might even be humbled by the task. After doing so, you may speak with authority as a person who has "been the trenches", and has experienced the frustrations of the real world.

If you look back to my very first post in the thread, you will see that I've been in the algae business for eighteen years. I've been to commercial production plants in S.E. Asia, where they have been growing numerous strains of algae on a commercial basis since 1964. I may be new to this forum, but I'm not a newbie in this arena. With all due respect, if you're struggling to produce a test-tube full of algae, then your choice of algal species to cultivate may not be the best, or you're doing something wrong.

I mentioned some time ago that botrycoccus was not an algae to be considered for biodiesel production for various reasons ... slow growth and unsuitable oils amongst them.. in fact,I dont even bother with it  in  or include it in my algae culture collection . frankly after posting countless times which are the best algae and a complete list of the twelve highest lipid producing algae im amazed at how people just go on thier merry way off on tangents with algae they know nothing about.

.there are those of us here who offer advice based on hands on  experience and knowledge but it seems that PEOPLE CANT READ or it just doesnt sink in.

 people ,if you want to get into this  realm youre going to have to learn a little about it.. this whole field of technology is complex, not only do you have to know which algae and  how to grow the algae, but then ,how to extract the oil and then how to convert it into  but because it complex doesnt mean you cant do it... we  repeatedly have mentioned our manual how to grow algae which includes info on not only growing algae but how to extract the oil in a manner that is within the realm of possiblity by anyone who is serious enough to get the proper  off the shelf equipment, and then excercise the common sence precautions when handling the equipment and operating it... remember making biodiesel even from veggie oil entails using hazardous materials and requires stringent precautions to prevent poisoning, burns and explosions. this is not a game... it is dead serious and  potentially dangerous process tecjnology... but judging from the amount of people that are making biodiesel for themselves it is heartening to see thast there are loads of people out there with brains enough to do this without injuring themselves or others. now add to that yet another process using yet more hazardous chemicals and complex equipment.... well ,you sure better know what you are doing. this is more than just growing algae in a pond  and making fuel from the algae. you need to learn how to do it or you will just be pissing into the wind. we planned a seminar for may but due to the press of the incredible amount of interest on this topic and people coming here  for business purposes we have decided to move the date up to JUNE  the exact date will be announced soon. Im not trying to discourage anyone in fact we have reverse engineered our technology down to the simplest equation because we want as many people as possible to get into this field, but no matter how easy we have made it there is still training required and this goes fro PHDs as well as folks who may not have had the priveledge of a higher education but have the willingness and ambition to learn how to make this work for them.  no matter which way one wants to play it, youve got to learn how to do it., theres the hard way or the easier way. but if you want learn how READ for crying ou loud... we do evry thing we can to provide ongoing personal contact with our clients. we want them to succeed we want you to succeed so read the forums go back in the archives to previous forums theres a wealth of knowledge in them and theyre fun to read too.... never a dull moment....or go to other sites dealing with algae to biofuels.then go ahead and try it for yourself...oh yeah we have also decided to build and produce a "Safety first_Failsafe "biodiesel processor.we have built countless small scale ethanol distillation systems for people in fact, our "Liberator:" system is in use by people all over the country some hooking up to thier hotwater heaters so they could run 24/7 pretty much automatically (like a coffee machine).so we're familiar with what is needed to produce an easy to use alternative fuel production system for folks. with the way things are and the price of fuels going ,through the cieling, i guess its time for usd to include an inexpensive SAFE efficient and easy to use biodiesel processor in our products list.

 Marc.

 

Thanks for your reply and I sympathise with your opinion regarding botryococcus braun ii. However, because of its specific lipids, which very closely resemble gasoline, aviation fuel and diesel fuel, I choose to grow that specific algae. I certainly respect your experience, the conclusions you have come to, and your rational in the development of your process. I chose a species because of its difficulties and possible rewards. The learning curve on this algae is long and difficult to climb. I have pleanty of time on my hands. I certainly hope to be succesful before I give up my ghost.

And in conclusion, if it was easy to do then it would already be done, especiall in SE Asia. The challenge is more tna half the reward.

English Tim:

you will see that I've been in the algae business for eighteen years. I've been to commercial production plants in S.E. Asia, where they have been growing numerous strains of algae on a commercial basis since 1964.

Great, then you must have some good ideas on the cost structure of growing algae. Care to offer what are some production numbers of these systems?

Sure we can grow algae. Sure we can harvest it. The problem isnt one of technology, its one of economics.

Gallon of diesel = 7lbs. To get 7lbs of algoil would take 28lbs of bone dry 25% lipid content. Assuming no EROI and costs of production, that means that a $5/gal diesel would have to cost less than $.18/lb raw algal feedstock just to break even.

Yet, as you must know being in the algae business, Spirulina sells for much, much higher than that. Refined, retail is ~ 20$/lb.  

Lets assume a 1000 % markup for wholesale cost of $2/lb. This is still a factor of 10x out of the economic ball park. Addition of cost of production, EROI, cost of doing business (financing, profit, insurance, failures), etc  is well over 50% and likely more like 75% costs to the system. This mean to enter the market at even $5/gal, algoil feedstock would have to be produced @ ~ $.05/bone dry lb.

To enter the electric production market that coal, wind, Nuke and NG dominate, algae feedstock would have to be produced for less than $.01/lb to compete.

Im curious how long before $.05 - $.01/lb bone dry algae feedstocks comes onto the market? Im sure its just 5yrs off...

Algae as a food? Yes. Algae as a fuel? Nope. Dont tell me that you think I think Im smarter than you, tell me where my math is wrong. Dont kill the messenger, answer the question.

liberty1:

 Froggy,

(Sarcasm on)

We have lots of hog lagoons here.  I like your idea of using wastes.  We can use hexane or a press to extract the oil from algae.  How do we extract the oil from hog wastes?

(Sarcasm off)

  According to Dr Zhang, its easy thru TCC. Froggy has done it in his lab using plants in his front yard. There is also AD systems, tho they are in-efficient and produces a biogas. My favorite tho is to gasify  --->  G2L technology... that is going to be the winner.

Anything else you need me to solve?

Yes, I have a very clear idea about production costs in a commercial system. For human-food-quality algae, production costs are far, far higher than those for aquaculture-quality feedstuffs, but feeding/growing them on the flue gases of any hydrocarbon burning industrial process facility to produce a fuel-grade algae will bring about economies of scale that will make the process very, very cost-effective.

Why do you think that private VC is all over this? Are there really that many dumb, but wealthy people out there?

Why don't you save them million$ by pointing out all of these economic problems that you've identified. They're obviously problems that have been overlooked or swept under the carpet by scores of companies and hundreds of qualified phycologists worldwide who are working toward this solution

I don't buy algae at retail, and I certainly wouldn't still be in this business if I was paying $20.00 for a pound of Spirulina. (We buy our raw materials by the metric tonne - it tends to be MUCH cheaper that way.)

How much did it cost the Incas to harvest spirulina platensis from Lake Toxoco? I believe it was ... hmmm ... FREE.

You keep harping on about 'algoil' and it's economics. What was my initial question when starting this thread? Go back and r-e-a-d my initial post. The technology exists to use algae as a fuel WITHOUT lipid extraction. Both the lipd and the carbohydrate content of algae are combustible components.

You provided the math on that too. $.05 per KWH for algae versus $.10 for petrodiesel.

You do understand, don't you, that at $4.25 - $4.50 per gallon, petrodiesel is only as cheap as it is because of Federal subsidies that you and I pay for through income taxes (plus additions to the National Debt - that overdraft that we're building up for our kids and grandchildren to pay down the road). If we had to pay for the true cost of exploration, drilling, production, transportation, refining, wholesale distribution, etc., (not forgetting the costs of military intervention to protect future access) then you and I would be paying north of $15.00 per gallon.

Why am I discussing this with a Luddite? Power your world with Cattails, dead fish and hot air. I, like many others, will look to the fastest growing and most energy efficient crop in the world to provide the bulk of the needed means for transitioning to a post fossil-fuel world.

English Tim:

  You keep harping on about 'algoil' and it's economics. What was my initial question when starting this thread? Go back and r-e-a-d my initial post. The technology exists to use algae as a fuel WITHOUT lipid extraction. Both the lipd and the carbohydrate content of algae are combustible components.

Up until my last post, I have been also talking about powered algae straight.

English Tim:

  I don't buy algae at retail, and I certainly wouldn't still be in this business if I was paying $20.00 for a pound of Spirulina. (We buy our raw materials by the metric tonne - it tends to be MUCH cheaper that way.) 

Ok so lets hear it... what is the cost per metric tonne?

English Tim:

  Why do you think that private VC is all over this? Are there really that many dumb, but wealthy people out there?

Where... where is there huge 'private VC is all over this'. Algae production is not being heavily invested into. PV, wind, nuke... those are being heavily invested into. Show me where 'private VC is all over this'.

English Tim:

You provided the math on that too. $.05 per KWH for algae versus $.10 for petrodiesel.

No where did I say that algae KWH = .05$/kwh you miss understood something. I said that KWH's on the open market are worth less per BTU than petrol BTU. I then said, 'Thus... algae oil is worth 2x more per BTU than algae electricity.'  This is not the true cost, this is just the present market cost of the fuel today. My contention is that you cannot collect, process and market algae for anywhere near today market value. You say we can. Show me some numbers. Your the one who has been working with algae for 18 years... show us some numbers.

English Tim:

Why am I discussing this with a Luddite? 

LOL luddite? I have been discussing with you your points, yet for some reason you insist on calling me names. Regardless... I have a very thick skin.

I will patiently wait for some real live numbers... tho Im sure I will get none.

 

Froggy:

My cost per metric tonne of algae is, as I previously stated, much less than retail. As a businessman in a competitive industry, what I actually pay for the food-grade chlorella that I buy in bulk is hardly something that I am going to post on a public forum. Suffice to say, there are very generous markups between bulk wholesale and packaged retail, if you are buying your raw materials in sufficient quantites.

I also clearly stated that producing food grade algae is far more capital intensive than producing aquaculture grade, and that futher economies of scale would be seen by using industrial flue gases as the feedstock for a fuel-grade algae.

You are deliberately missing out or ignoring a key component in your economic argument, which are the MASSIVE taxpayer-funded subsidies and tax breaks given to oil companies, power generators. corn-ethanol producers etc.. Level the playing field for algae producers and let's see what they can come up with.

Here's a list of the more prominent companies working towards the algae/biofuel solution. Do YOUR research, and you will find that a LOT of private sector money is being invested in these companies and their technologies.

A2BE Carbon Capture A2BE Carbon Capture has patented a system for biodiesel production from algae.

AlgaeLink Retailer of photobioreactors and commercial algae cultivation equipment. Offers full support for operations, potential distributorship opportunities.

Algoil - A pioneer project focusing on the production of Biodiesel / Biomass from micro algae. The target is also to use the rest of the extracted biomass to make food, biofuel, hydrogen, paper, or simply burning it like charcoal. The extraction of oil suitable for Biodiesel is now a confirmed success.

Aquaflow Binomic Corporation (ABC) - harvests algae directly from the settling ponds of standard Effluent Management (EM) Systems and other nutrient-rich water. The process can be used in many industries that produce a waste stream, including the transport, dairy, meat and paper industries.

Aquaflow Bionomics - Many vegetable and biomass derived oils could replace petroleum as its scarcity and price increase. The search for new faster growing species will intensify as demand increases.

Aquatic Energy - An Alternative Energy company specializing in the Louisiana Gulf area for turing algal oils into biofuel.

Aurora BioFuels, Inc. A renewable energy company exploring new sources of feedstock for the production of biofuels. In particular, Aurora utilizes microalgae to generate bio-oil, which can be converted into biodiesel.

Blue Marble energy - A company that converts algae biomass to energy by creating, centralizing, and harvesting wild algae blooms.

Bionavitas - Utilizing its patent pending technology, Bionavitas is developing innovations for efficient and effective algae growth.

Circle Biodiesel & Ethanol Corporation - Circle Biodiesel & Ethanol Corporation has developed and manufactured a new algae photo bioreactor to add to their existing line of biofuels processing equipment including biodiesel processors and ethanol stills.

Enhanced Biofuels & Technologies - The EBT algae process combines a bioreactor with an open pond, both using waste CO2 from coal fired power plant flue gases as a fertilizer for the algae. The biodiesel and ethanol produced can be sold, or used as an alternative fuel on site. Emissions are reduced up to 82%.

GreenFuel Technologies Emissions-to-Biofuels™ (E2B™) process harnesses photosynthesis to grow algae, capture CO2 and produce high-energy biomass. Retrofitting fossil-fired power plants and other anthropogenic sources of carbon dioxide, the algae can be economically converted to solid fuel, methane, or liquid transportation fuels such as biodiesel and ethanol.

GreenShift has a license agreement with Ohio University for its patented bioreactor process based on a newly discovered iron-loving cyanobacterium (blue-green algae), through their subsidiary Veridium, for the purpose of air pollution control of exhaust gas streams from electrical utility fossil-fueled power generation facilities. Once the algae grow to maturity, they fall to the bottom of the bioreactor and are harvested for fuel or fertilizer.

Green Star Products - GSPI's HAPS Algae Systems & GSPI's Biodiesel Technology: A Real Solution To Peak Oil & Global Warming

Infinifuel Biodiesel - Wabuska Nevada is home to the world's first geothermally powered and heated biodiesel plant. We have over 300 acres to grow oilseed and develop algae ponds on site.

Inventure Chemical - Pioneered the processes that allow biofuel developers to ultimately make the dream of affordable biofuels a reality by the application of cost effective conversion and processing methods working with a variety of feedstocks - from algae produced from CO2 emissions to exotic and not so exotic oil seeds and biomass.

LiveFuels - A national alliance of labs and scientists dedicated to transforming algae into biocrude by the year 2010. Working on breeding various strains of algae, driving down the costs of harvesting algae and extracting fats and oils from the algae. Theoretically, the U.S. could grow enough algae on 20 million acres to replace imported oil.

OriginOil - Novel technology at the microscopic scale can enhance the efficiency of algae production as a high-yield, cost-competitive replacement for petroleum. In the growth phase, nutrients are fractured and injected into algae culture. In the extraction phase, fracturing breaks the tough outer membrane of the algae in an energy-efficient manner.

PetroAlgae - Commercializing an environmentally-friendly algae developed by a research team at ASU that generates over two hundred times more oil per acre than crops like soybeans. Using a cost-effective, modular cultivation process that can be massively scaled, PetroAlgae will produce renewable feed stock oils for use in applications such as transportation fuels (e.g. biodiesel), heating oil, and plastics.

PetroSun - Through their wholly owned subsidiary Algae BioFuels and industry partner Electratherm, is committed to becoming a worldwide leader in the development and deployment of renewable energy resources.

Seambiotic - As they have already developed and produced algae, their main goal is to market algae as a nutritional supplement for humans as well as animals and bio-energy concentrating on a few marine unicellular algae containing high value products.

Solazyme - Devoted to harnessing the energy-harvesting machinery of various species of algae to produce valuable products. The Company utilizes proprietary genetic engineering methods to develop and optimize commercially relevant biochemical pathways for production of hydrocarbons (for energy and specialty chemicals) & bioactive compounds.

Solena Group - Uses high temperatures to gasify algae and other organic substances with high-energy outputs.

Solix Biofuels - A developer of massively scaleable photo-bioreactors for the production of biodiesel and other valuable bio-commodities from algae oil. Solix’ closed photo-bioreactors allow fossil-fuel power plant exhaust to be captured through the growing system. The algae growth rates increase in the presence of the carbon dioxide that would otherwise be emitted into the atmosphere.

Texas Clean Fuels - Our algae bioreactor is called the "MOPS" - an acronym for Micro-Organism Production System, which also reflects its function as a carbon dioxide "mopping" technology. The MOPS can be used for both carbon dioxide sequestration and biofuel feedstock production simulateously.

Valcent Products - Has developed a high density vertical bio-reactor for the mass production of oil bearing algae while removing large quantities of carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere. This new bio-reactor is tailored to grow a species of algae that yields a large volume of high grade vegetable oil, which is very suitable for blending with diesel to create a bio-diesel fuel.

Heck, I'll even help you with your research. Have a look here, and see just how much private VC is going into these ventures. http://earth2tech.com/2008/03/27/15-algae-startups-bringing-pond-scum-to-fuel-tanks/

Luddite was the only descriptive I could use which I felt summarized your attitude towards advances in technology which clash with your world view of the energy crisis and how to solve it.

.

Great list of people striving toward something, but not one is commercially viable, yet. The end game is producing transportation fuels from algea. To that end only. There is no one, no one providing feed stocks to refineries, or other institutions, for a profit.  Tell me about the corner gas pump selling bio fuels made from algae. NO THERE YET! ! ! No where near enough money pouring in, no where near enough to overcome the obstacles to putting an algae based fuel into you auto. All you have presented are dreams with hands outstreached begging for cash in a corperate format, almost a circus fairway shill act. As for food grade algae, tell when you are putting it into a gas tank. Right now you are talking about apples and this forum is about oranges and the successes and failures of squeezing those oranges for fuel.

Hi 101, nice to meet you. If I could finish your sentence...

sgtrock101:

the successes and failures of squeezing those oranges for fuel

as economically as other scalable sustainable energy systems being developed.

I suppose my real point is that algae is at best 4-5% solar yield efficient before EROI vs many other systems that are coming onto the market like Wind and PV/Hydrogen or PV/Battery or Nuke/Hydrogen or Solar CO/Wind H FT syngas, G2L syngas or geothermal/Hydrogen...etc ... so many other technologies that can be scaled in huge numbers around the deserts and farms and cities and... of the world without the need to be alive and utilize water and for a heck of alot less for $200/bbl of oil. Algae, nor any other biofuel is nearly efficient to power the world we are moving into, other abiotic systems to harness energy are simply more economic on the scale we are talking about.

Tim,

Somehow we are on the wrong foot here. Lets tone this down, OK?

Im not a luddite, I run 2 labs that works on cutting edge science. And just because someone doesnt buy into a dream doesnt make him a luddite. I dont buy into overunity magnet motors, nor Scientology... this doesnt make me a luddite. Also, almost by definition... anyone on this site would be classified as an innovator and thus, the opposite of luddite.

Lets start with things we can agree on.

English Tim:

   what I actually pay for the food-grade chlorella that I buy in bulk is hardly something that I am going to post on a public forum.

  totally agree. I dont talk business on here either.

English Tim:

I also clearly stated that producing food grade algae is far more capital intensive than producing aquaculture grade, and that futher economies of scale would be seen by using industrial flue gases as the feedstock for a fuel-grade algae.

OK I agree. Im not sure one can get coal exhaust to product food but I will absolutely agree that there is obvious economy in co-generation systems. I find this approach useful and likely the main mechanism as to how we 'work and build' our way out of energy cost. Paper mills becoming refineries. Ag systems producing 'plastic making' feedstocks whereas the water effluent is pumped back onto ag land. This will cause many more greenhouses and hort food production, which is going to be a HUGE growth industry as energy gets more expensive.

English Tim:

  You are deliberately missing out or ignoring a key component in your economic argument, which are the MASSIVE taxpayer-funded subsidies and tax breaks given to oil companies, power generators. corn-ethanol producers etc.. Level the playing field for algae producers and let's see what they can come up with.

I absolutely agree with you. Lets level it all and let the best technology win. CO2 emission costs @ 200$/ton + Mercury fees + SOX, NOx, ROx fees... makes coal uneconomical and wind/PV/Wave an easy choice.

But there is the flip side to this... liquid fuels are naturally dirty and 'sooty'. NOx, tho reduced is not completely. And a ICE is only ~ 40% efficient vs many other systems. Energy density will be solved in the next 10 years and likely the materials to do this are already in the hands of people that can make it happen.

English Tim:

producing food grade algae

is a wonderful idea and should be ramped up with all speed ahead.

The best thing about algae, what makes it so valuable? Its a CHO/Protein fixer extrodinare. No matter how much syngas or hydrogen or PV or wind I have... I cant really make food with it. I can make energy products for the consumer... but not food. Im also concerned about confusing the two. Personally... I cannot imagine a world where food costs the same as energy. I think that is a very ugly world and it doesnt make sense from an economic/scientific point of view.

English Tim:

  Heck, I'll even help you with your research.

Thanks. I know there are alot of co's working on this. I have shown my math on why I dont think that algae can be an economic scaled solution to energy... apparently these companies have different numbers and/or different goals.

There might be some confusion as to my goals and desires. I would love nothing more than for green plants to dominate our economy. They already do, algal production would be even better. I am a botanist and love nothing more than to roll around in plants, grow em, study em, I have my own small farm and greenhouses, my home is the one on the block with almost no grass and all veggies, flowers and butterflies. I love plants... ask anyone that knows me. I would love more than anything for there to be an algal sector. But I also know what the numbers are and based on the research that I have done, been doing and will do, the numbers are far wide for there to be a viable algal sector. I promise that I will continue to keep up with the numbers and when there is some viable systems and economies brought out... I will be the first one to be on board. But the sad truth is that we live in a world dominated by money, its about the economy of it. Until numbers are shown... its all vaporware.

At a recent symposium, Dr. Donohue , who heads a $150m grant said something that makes alot of sense. Paraphrasing 'the reason we do ethanol and are talking cellulosic ethanol is because we know how to do it, have done it and can scale it'. The beauty of ethanol is that we can do it and have done it. The problem with algae is that its hard to do and the economics dont work. Should we study it? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!   Is it vaporware right now? Yep. Is there promise? Yep. Does the hype match the reality? IMO, not even close.

English Tim:

the energy crisis and how to solve it. 

I would like to remind you that there is no energy crisis, there is a liquid fuel or consumer available or costly fuel pricing or...  but certainly there is no energy crisis. The sun pounds us with 13000x more energy @ present burn than humans could ever need. And with geothermal, fission, fusion, solar winds...  you get the point. Oh yea... humans have harvested less than 1% of the fixed fossil fuel on the planet and likely less than .01%. Ofc much of that fossil fuel is not thermodynamically available at present technology but the idea that there is an 'energy crisis' is crazy. The reason you run your air conditioner? Too much energy.

I think the better characterization would be that we have an economic crisis concerning clean consumer energy. And if you word the issue correctly, you will see that the solution, or how to solve it, is to understand the economy of energy... not the production of energy. Give me enough $/gal of gaz or KWH... 100% confident that I can cleanly produce all you want, heck... more than what you want. Tax coal fairly for the damage it does... again... 100% confident industry will step up to the plate.

So how to solve this issue that is reworded, how to solve the economic crisis concerning clean consumer energy? Simple raise the value of energy and tax pollution. There will be some growing pains but in the end... we all win big. Jobs, trade, food costs, pollution... we can all win if we understand the real problem. Raise the value of energy and tax pollution.

 

 Thanks for the info Tim. Really liking the idea of and areosol algae fueling something like a farm tractor. Wonder if it has been tested with jet turbine engines? That would make it a winner for powering locomotives.

I would love to see this work. 

Welcome to Biodieselnow. If you like scientific arguements you'll come to appreciate Froggy. I can't help but think the man works for the oil companies but then again I am a cynical bastad. 

 Froggy,

It is a good thing Joshua Tickel did not talk to you.  You would have told him that the only way to make biodiesel was with a million dollar industrial plant.  So, today, we would have a few industrial biosidesel plants, but no backyard biodiesel brewers.  And there would be a lot less people talking to their friends about biodiesel.  (I realize JT was not the only one working on biodiesel - Girlmark may be the best.)

(Note that the following is a vision - not a projection or a promise.)

My vision is that we will have several levels of algae oil production.  There will be large industrial growers, producing oil for a profit.  There will be farm or village growers, producing oil for their own use - they will be concious of costs, but the costs will not have to be low enough to produce a profit.  There will be backyard producers also growing for their own use - they will be least concious of costs - ignoring labor costs - using algae oil because they believe in its advantages for the environment.  It will be the backyard growers who will be the ones who tell their friends and spread the idea of algae oil.

Yes, I do look forward to backyard oil production.  Just like with today's biodiesel, there will be simplified backyard processes and complicated, expensive industrial processes.

I was not being sarcastic about your opposition to algae.  You seem to be dedicated to discouraging people from working on oil from algae.  (I did notice that in another reply, you said that you thought that we should keep working on algae.  I wish you would repeat that more often, rather than implying we are wasting our time even looking at oil from algae.  I do agree with you there are a lot of press releases that seem to be scams.)

I agree this thread started with using algae for prime mover fuel, but the conversation no longer reflected that limited field. 

Tuesday: Thanks for the welcome: - I sincerely appreciate it. You're the first to actually say 'Welcome'' to this newbie.

If you follow the link in my last post you'll see that Aquaflow Binomic and Boeing are working on a jet-fuel program with algae-derived fuel stocks. This should translate to any turbine-based application

Sgt101rock: You're so pessimistic about this whole concept, yet you have a plan to solve the problem with botyrococcus brauneii. You're obviously onto something that the rest of us are missing.

Froggy: It's late on a Sunday evening. I have family to attend to. Graduation ceremony for my son in a week or so, etc., If I get the time, opportunity and inclination, I'll post a reply in the next day or so which will rebut your, ... ahem ... questionable assertion that 'there is no energy crisis'.

'Manana'