Glass half-full, or glass half-empty? I feel that guarded optimism is a better view of reality, and more productive when searching for solutions.

Just because sheeple acted with 'irrational exuberance', as Alan Greenspan described blind faith in the run up of dot.com stocks, does not mean that the internet as a business model has been a failure. (e.g. Google, Ebay, Amazon etc).

The more corporate start-ups and university researchers there are working on algal fuel technologies, the greater the chances of breakthroughs that will translate into real-world solutions. If you believe that every one of these efforts is simply a veiled ploy to extract money from gullible investors and milk money from the public coffers, then I'm glad that I don't perceive reality from your viewpoint.

liberty1:

algae oil production. 

Let me give an example of why Im pessimistic of algae as an energy source.

Parabolic trough has the solar efficiency of ~ 20%. Adding a H2 system at an efficiency of 70% yields ~ 14% solar converson to consumer usable energy, called system yield. I would also contend that H2 has more value to industry AND consumers than does dirty C filled Diesel. I would also contend that the system itself is superior to solar uptake technologies than life (water, disease, respiration...) ever could be.

Algal PBR can only yield ~ 10% and that is before EROI and biological losses. And if the algae is ~ 50% oil, the rest of the fixed energy is of lesser quality energy. By the way... no existing algal plant has ever yielded a consistant production over 3-4% after 60+ years of algal production research. And system yields are much, much lower because of EROI, biological, infrastructure, production...  Its likely that the 6% system yield barrier is never crossed.

So given the above scenario... why does algae energy excite people? I can get 14% solar yield TODAY using existing technologies or get 2-3% yield after countless years of algal R&D. Per sq meter... algae doesnt make sense. EROI, algae doesnt make sense. Economically, algae doesnt make sense.

By the way... which system will cost less to build, less to maintain per/sq ft? Which system is more easily scaled?

 I bring up the solar trough often for a few different applications. Very often people argue the cost of batteries, intial capital outlay and the like for using them to generate electricty does not make them attractive.

Often I can state that may be true but I'm not suggesting generating electricity I'm suggesting generating heat. And often in the same conversation people stick to "the it's not cost effective for generating electricity."

If heat is what you need then I think they make sense. If an added bonus is generating electricity than you may be able to justify the additional cost to generate electricity.

I'm speaking of the systems that heat oil.

And sure in Maddison Wisconsin they may not be as practical as Texas but what if you only really used them 4 months out of the year to dry algae? Can you store algae over 8 months and dry it?

Maybe bury that tank of algae and keep it warm all winter using solar troughs? Bet it would give off a some methane you could use for things like a source of CO2 for algae production. Bet that tank of algae would worse than festering meat. 

Tuesday:

  And sure in Maddison Wisconsin they may not be as practical as Texas but what if you only really used them 4 months out of the year to dry algae? 

Why do you think algae will grow during the winter? I promise you that even tho global warming is upon us, I still icefish for 3months a year. I am fairly confident that BTU gain of the system will have a hard time keeping up with the heating needs. Yet... PV does better in the snow cover and bright days of the near winter sun.

And the light level is the same for the algae, that it is for the trough. The sun doesnt shine brighter on a PBR than it does to a mirror. 

Tuesday:

suggesting generating heat.

Tuesday:

Bet that tank of algae would worse than festering meat. 

 OK just pulling numbers from the gray matter that was once brain cells.

If you take the temp of the earth 5' below the surface isn't almost a constant 50 degrees F all year long. Bury the oil resevoive tank where the top of it is 5' below surface. Only circulate it throught he trough when the trough reaches 80 degrees or better. That oil will stay pretty hot through the night and even more than a few winter cloudy days.

If I'm not mistaken five feet below surface is like an industry standard for home heating oil tanks. I think the reason is the temp through the winter is always above 40 degrees F.

IF the numbers proved algae worthwhile would production 9 months out of the year be so bad. Kinda why I mention might be a good fit for a farmer. 

I know at this point it's pretty idealistic. It is the kinda stuff that floats through my grey matter though.

LOL I'm 45 years young and trying to learn calculious all over again. If I can do that than I'm sure you make algae worthwhile for something. Now if only I could spell. 

we grow algae year round we have blooms in the winter as well as in sprIng and summer and fall we also grow tilapia fish year rounf, all this in our closed loop ecosystem which is a polytunnell PBR 85X20X6ft deep. ...weve got vidio tapes to prove it for those naysayers that push numbers around all the time. so-called rules are made to be broken  thats what research and development is all about..

 were holding another  "how to grow algae" seminar  JUN 14-15  due to all the requests and inquiries weve had.  well make a formal announcement on the events forum later on today..

 Marc

Froggy, I have to agree with you that PV for electrical generation is probably the correct path - for electricity.

But until they make a battery that can power a car at speeds up to 100kph for hours at a time and 10 minute recharges, we are stuck with the ICE. Algae to oil to BD will be economical when we can find the right growing sytem.

ecogenics3:

we grow algae year round

Slippery:

Froggy, I have to agree with you that PV for electrical generation is probably the correct path - for electricity. 

Slippery... I was not talking about e', I was talking about Hydrogen... which can be used as a superior transportation fuel. Clean, efficient, no pollution... 

And if you arnt happy with pure H2 and must have liquid hydrocarbons, you can utilize that H2 to turn any source of C (raw biomass, coal, CO2 from industry or the air) thru simple well known chemistry, we can turn that recipe into any hydrocarbon your interested in. At a much higher yield/sq meter and likely at a much lower cost at scale.

Oh yea... existing equipment I can buy TODAY. Not future or after R&D or as some have suggested "a manhatten type of national project' or ... I can buy this equipment today.

Slightly off topic but as I was reading thru Tim's list, this one caught my eye.  

English Tim:

  Texas Clean Fuels - Our algae bioreactor is called the "MOPS" - an acronym for Micro-Organism Production System, which also reflects its function as a carbon dioxide "mopping" technology. The MOPS can be used for both carbon dioxide sequestration and biofuel feedstock production simulateously.

I believe that this is the same as Jonathan Gal . Search are read for yourselves...

 Froggy.

Efficiencies such as you have been quoting are meaningless.  The ones that count are miles traveled per investment and production dollar.  The ones you quote are only useful if they help us get more miles per dollar.  You are ignoring the difference in investment between digging a 5 acre pond that in 6 inches deep and buying enough solar cells to cover 5 acres.  Solar troughs are probably even more expensive (at this point - mass production would bring that down, but not to the cost of a 6 inch deep pond.)

Until we know more about what is possible and practical, there is no way to realistically compare prices.  As a for instance, if you look up a reference for the oil content for Chlorella, you will usually find it quoted as 20%.  During a flurry of interest in C. during the 50s, a study by Carnegie Institution got 80% - and they were not trying to maximize oil.  So we have a lot to learn about the most economic way to farm algae. 

(This is the Wikipedia entry for Chlorella, but it does not include the Carnegie reference):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorella 

After at least 20 different projects have grown at least 1/4 acre of algae and published the resutls, then we will have some basis for comparing algae with solar troughs or whatever. 

liberty1:

     Efficiencies such as you have been quoting are meaningless.  The ones that count are miles traveled per investment and production dollar.  The ones you quote are only useful if they help us get more miles per dollar. 

Ok fair enough. I can show you the Trough numbers... in 10 to 20 years... when you have some numbers... let me know.

liberty1:

  You are ignoring the difference in investment between digging a 5 acre pond that in 6 inches deep and buying enough solar cells to cover 5 acres. 

 I'm pretty sure if I spent 3.5 billion dollars I could refine about 250000 barrels of oil a day. Until some one is willing to spend that first $3.5 billion petroleum products will just have to wait.

 Oh wait scratch that.

 Froggy,

I tried to be fair - solar power requires much more than solar cells.

There are many more diesel cars available in the USA than full electric cars.

  At 56 years old this is funny,73,79,Mother Earth News,peak oil,Earth Day.....Everythings OK guys don't waste your lives on trying to replace oil,build wind turbines,ethanol,solar...when the tax breaks go away,all this will be funny.When oil,silver,gold,soybeans...commodities....go back down,the world works,look at inflation adjusted oil,gold,corn...study economics.In the year 2050,oil will propell are cars,coal will light our homes,people will be drinking ethanol or believe like I did fusion is just around the corner,and we will fly to work......1974,Newsweek,global cooling.....first Earth Day,protest global cooling and nuclear winter.When oil is at 20...please remember this.

HUH???

I want some of what you are on.

Reality

Froggy, This forum is something,it has a high priest,that needs to go on a diet,he could feed a family in Africa with the saved food,you do not point out any flaws in their logic,an acre of algae won't grow when you put it in the ground.If algae oil was cheap,Wesson would be all over it.NREL,Livefuels,etc are flawed,none make sense to this religious sect,I farm,corn just topped $7,I farm to feed people not fuel George Bush's SUV.I'LL BE GLAD WHEN THE TAXBREAKS EXPIRE.I live in central Illinois and they put in wind turbines for the tax breaks,we are a LOW wind energy state,they could have gone to Wyoming.

Good luck pointing out logic,Hitler would love these survivalist nut jobs,Hippies need to grow up,I did.

                                      FOOD NOT FUEL

Well, those Illinois, Iowa and Wisconsin farmers are hurting right now. Seems mother nature threw a wrench in the "grow corn for food, or ethenol, or what ever" line. Thing is, we nee all options explored and utilized to our maximum extent. We can either continue our drug addiction to foreign oil, sell our daughters, or sons (if you know what I mean) to the Islamic terrorists, convert to Islam, or we can evolve away from dino fuel.  Its a choice that is painful and difficult. The solution encompases, ethenol, algea oil/gasoline, biodesil, and what other energy sources we can harnes and develop here in this country. Each avenue will start somewhere, evolve and the end product may not look like the first product made. When we keep our wealth here in the USA/Canada/Mexico we all will prosper and live a higher quality of life. Having said all that, lets get back to the focus of this forum, sustainable fuels from algae and other life forms. We have many years of experimentation and leads to follow before we can breath a breath of relief.

Corrupt goverments start wars in Iraq,and subsize ethanol.Topic is biofuels are bad for the enviroment,if there are food riots here,remember we explored every option and burnt up our food in an SUV.

                                                        FOOD NOT FUEL