BioDieselNow - Renewable biodiesel fuel

So I have an 86 n/a Jetta now... and my ultimate goal is to install a WVO kit. In the meantime, I intend to use some bd... and will continue to use bd in the starter tank. But in a general sense (mostly out of curiosity, at the moment), I'm curious what kinds of long-term pros and cons there are between using VO (primarily WVO) vs. biodiesel (primarily from WVO). In a strict dollars-and-cents sense, it seems to make sense to use a WVO kit. They generally seem to cost around $300 (very ballpark). Making bd tends to cost (no less than) $1/gallon (again, very ballpark). If these numbers are accurate (not accounting for the value of my time to filter oil or convert it to bd, etc, and not accounting for the expense of bd production equipment, which can be shared between multiple vehicles unlike the cost of a wvo kit), then it would stand to reason that if I intend to use more than 300 gallons of fuel, it would ultimately be cheaper to do the VO conversion. 300 gallons is roughly 12k miles in my car... which probably means about 9 months worth of driving for me. Are there any other _significant_ considerations to take into account when calculating the value of a WVO system over bd? Specifically, things that would guide me _away_ from using WVO? Things like engine wear (will WVO wear out my engine sooner)? Fuel efficiency (is WVO less efficient than bd, or vice versa, etc)? Anything else?

As far as costs in dollars there really isn't any other costs. But there are other issues that could become costly. Like cold weather issues. Biodiesel is easier to deal with in the cold winter months, you don't have to worry so much about heating it. It can be blended with diesel to solve gelling problems. The reason for the 2 tank system for VO is to get the VO good and warm so it will combust completely. If is not up to temp it will start gumming things all up, which becomes costly. Biodiesel can do this too if you don't blend it when temps are really cold. WVO will cause big problems if you don't heat it properly, or use good quality grease. But biodiesel can cause big problems too if you put in crappy biodiesel you take the chance for causing engine problems. Cost wise VO is probably cheaper assuming you run everything properly, because if you are going to make your own BD you still have to go collect all the VO and then you have to process it. But with SVO you just have to filter and dewater and go. Andrew '82 Mercedes 300TD-running on biodiesel since March 2005.

In my climate (central Kansas), cold-weather issues are probably only an issue for about 2 weeks (made up of non-consecutive days) in the average year. (Probably a slight exaguration, but you get the idea) But even with a 2-tank WVO system, it is still possible to use bd or even pd (in the main tank, or 2nd tank). The only "downside" to this, is that I'm not "saving as much money per gallon" when running 'cold weather' fuel--but that's true with pd vehicles running winter blends, too... so it's not really any more of problem (just one that requires more 'consumer' awareness, I suppose, since my fuel supply won't be magically winterized for me)

I prefer to modify the fuel, not the car. Then it will work in any diesel. I can share it with friends and introduce new people to it. I can swap cars and my old one isn't hacked. Modifying a car will make driving the car so unique noone else can drive it without pre flight training. If you have the space, you can setup to make fuel for about the same cost as you can convert a car. I guess I just get a kick out of making BD. Bob The Bio Clinic bob@abbweb.com

"Things like engine wear (will WVO wear out my engine sooner)?" Nope. Fuel efficiency (is WVO less efficient than bd, or vice versa, etc)? Who cares? WVO is $0.10 / gallon using your method. Anything else?" Kit costs are a little higher, even for DIY. If DIY, go to biodiesel.infopop.cc BD only makes sense if you have 3 or more engines or furnaces. Ignore the opinion of anyone who hasn't done both bd and WVO. I know several homebrewers who are coming over to the WVO side. As you point out, it's much cheaper and the same risk. I estimate I spend less than 1 hour / week to make 10 gallons of wvo. From collecting to final product. See what homebrewers claim. The jell point of canola is only 5*F higher than B100 from soy. 20K miles on B100, 30K miles on 90% Veg. Oil.

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Originally posted by bobabbey
I prefer to modify the fuel, not the car. Then it will work in any diesel. I can share it with friends and introduce new people to it. I can swap cars and my old one isn't hacked. Modifying a car will make driving the car so unique noone else can drive it without pre flight training. If you have the space, you can setup to make fuel for about the same cost as you can convert a car. I guess I just get a kick out of making BD. Bob The Bio Clinic bob@abbweb.com

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20K miles on B100, 30K miles on 90% Veg. Oil.

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Originally posted by bobabbey
I prefer to modify the fuel, not the car. Then it will work in any diesel. I can share it with friends and introduce new people to it. I can swap cars and my old one isn't hacked. Modifying a car will make driving the car so unique noone else can drive it without pre flight training. If you have the space, you can setup to make fuel for about the same cost as you can convert a car. I guess I just get a kick out of making BD. Bob The Bio Clinic bob@abbweb.com

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Driving a WVO-converted car is no harder than driving a non-converted car... if you don't flip over to the 2nd tank. If I ever have a reason to loan my car to a friend, I can tell them "Just don't push the red button!"

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Originally posted by ctbiodzl
BD only makes sense if you have 3 or more engines or furnaces.

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I have several friends/family members who are eager to see how my bd/WVO experiments turn out. If I can prove to them it's a reasonable way to fuel my car, chances are that when they buy new vehicles, they will get TDIs and buy bd I make, and/or co-produce it with me. But even so, if I invest all the necessary funds in equipment for bd, I'm still thinking it makes sense to use straight WVO when possible. Less $, less time to prepare. I just asked the question to make sure I wasn't overlooking anything important :) Thanks a lot for your input!

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Originally posted by flimzy
But even so, if I invest all the necessary funds in equipment for bd, I'm still thinking it makes sense to use straight WVO when possible. Less $, less time to prepare.

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This is actually my ultimate plan: two tank VO system, run BD in the main tank and WVO in the second tank. That way I'm recycling more, I can offer BD to help out friends who have standard diesels, and can be better using more "trash" resources. Really high FFA stuff would get cut with a little of the good stuff and fresh oil and then made into BD, while the sweetest of the WVO crop would be burned straight-up.

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Originally posted by Turbinepowered

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Originally posted by flimzy
But even so, if I invest all the necessary funds in equipment for bd, I'm still thinking it makes sense to use straight WVO when possible. Less $, less time to prepare.

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This is actually my ultimate plan: two tank VO system, run BD in the main tank and WVO in the second tank. That way I'm recycling more, I can offer BD to help out friends who have standard diesels, and can be better using more "trash" resources. Really high FFA stuff would get cut with a little of the good stuff and fresh oil and then made into BD, while the sweetest of the WVO crop would be burned straight-up.

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Okay, so that reply didn't work right. What I meant to say was... That reminds me of a question I have... I know high FFA content makes WVO less ideal for BD conversion, but does it effect its usability as straight WVO fuel?

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Originally posted by flimzy
Okay, so that reply didn't work right. What I meant to say was... That reminds me of a question I have... I know high FFA content makes WVO less ideal for BD conversion, but does it effect its usability as straight WVO fuel?

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High FFA VO tends to gel at a warmer temp than low FFA VO. This will make it a little thougher to get it up to temp in the second tank. And it make become completely solid at near room temp. It will burn just fine, but you have to be sure that it is good and worm first. Andrew '82 Mercedes 300TD-running on biodiesel since March 2005.

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Originally posted by ctbiodzl
Ignore the opinion of anyone who hasn't done both bd and WVO. I know several homebrewers who are coming over to the WVO side. 20K miles on B100, 30K miles on 90% Veg. Oil.

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I don't appriciate you telling people to ignore my opinions becuase I haven't run VO. Just because someone hasn't run WVO through their car doesn't mean they don't know the ins and outs of the process of running WVO. I know the process for doing both. I have several friends that run VO. Not everyone has the time or interest in running WVO. With WVO you can't drive up to the pump, fill the car up and take off. It takes more time, and some people would rather be doing other things. I buy BD because I rent, and I drive so little that it only costs me about $50/month to drive. Andrew '82 Mercedes 300TD-running on biodiesel since March 2005.

"I don't appriciate you telling people to ignore my opinions becuase I haven't run VO." - Ok, but you didn't mention that your S/WVO experiences were second hand till I warned the OP about just such statements. " Just because someone hasn't run WVO through their car doesn't mean they don't know the ins and outs of the process of running WVO. I know the process for doing both." - And to your credit, I didn't find any factual errors in your statements. " I have several friends that run VO." - second hand experiences. "Not everyone has the time or interest in running WVO." -- ?? relevent? " With WVO you can't drive up to the pump, fill the car up and take off." -True. Unless you live in Germany where they have several dozen SVO pumps. " It takes more time, and some people would rather be doing other things." - The OP was comparing homebrew BD to WVO. Not commercial BD to WVO. " I buy BD because I rent, and I drive so little that it only costs me about $50/month to drive." - I know 2 WVO'ers who rent. Andrew '82 Mercedes 300TD-running on biodiesel since March 2005. [/quote] 20K miles on B100, 30K miles on 90% Veg. Oil.

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Originally posted by Biodiesel300TD
Not everyone has the time or interest in running WVO. With WVO you can't drive up to the pump, fill the car up and take off. It takes more time, and some people would rather be doing other things. I buy BD because I rent, and I drive so little that it only costs me about $50/month to drive.

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If you have the time to _make_ BD, you certianly have the time to filter WVO for straight use. Certianly there are people who would rather buy BD than mess with filtering WVO. But that wasn't my question. I was asking for a contrast/comparison of filtering WVO vs. home producing BD. That's not to say I don't appreciate your input on the matter, or that your opinion isn't valuable. I'm interested in hearing all relevant information. I do believe your situation and mine are different, however. And I probably will do the WVO conversion for my car.

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Originally posted by flimzy

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Originally posted by Biodiesel300TD
Not everyone has the time or interest in running WVO. With WVO you can't drive up to the pump, fill the car up and take off. It takes more time, and some people would rather be doing other things. I buy BD because I rent, and I drive so little that it only costs me about $50/month to drive.

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If you have the time to _make_ BD, you certianly have the time to filter WVO for straight use. Certianly there are people who would rather buy BD than mess with filtering WVO. But that wasn't my question. I was asking for a contrast/comparison of filtering WVO vs. home producing BD. That's not to say I don't appreciate your input on the matter, or that your opinion isn't valuable. I'm interested in hearing all relevant information. I do believe your situation and mine are different, however. And I probably will do the WVO conversion for my car.

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I was simple respoding to ctbiodzl comments. You are right, you have to prep the VO much the same wether you are making BD or you are running it straight. I'm not trying to talk you out of running WVO. I go back and forth about swicthing to WVO. Andrew '82 Mercedes 300TD-running on biodiesel since March 2005.

ctbiodzl, You are still insulting all the other people here that may not be running it. Someone may not be an expert but they still may have intellegent, educated, and good opinions. A lot of what people talk about on this forum is heresay, comes second hand, and people expressing opinions. Andrew '82 Mercedes 300TD-running on biodiesel since March 2005.

"Someone may not be an expert but they still may have intellent, educated, and good opinions. " Sure , like the self apponted wizards at tdiclub.com who told a WVO Beetle owner that dies while running cold WVO that either his injectors were varnished, plugged/ clogged and maybe needed cleaning or rebuilding or replacement. [url]http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=132277[/url] When in fact, none of these things happened, or could have happened. But the self-appointed 'wizards' with 'opinions' didn't allow the fact that none of them had ever run cold wvo from preventing themselves from offering bad advice. Had the poster followed it, he would have wasted lots of time and money tearing apart his perfectly functional injectors needlessly. Maybe thats acceptable to you. You believe they were simply voicing their opinion. I believe they should either be silent, or put a disclaimer before their post. 20K miles on B100, 30K miles on 90% Veg. Oil.

Now that we have hi-jack the thread. The original post was asking for opinions, fact, and experiences. Andrew '82 Mercedes 300TD-running on biodiesel since March 2005.

ctbiodzl, some would say that you should "be silent, or put a disclaimer before [your] post." You obviously have an axe to grind. This is a democratic forum, so please be respectful and lay off the attitude toward people who aren't hurting anyone and whom you don't know. Kumar Plocher Yokayo Biofuels .........../ \..................... fueling / R \ evolution ........./____\.................. My "Fueled for Thought" biodiesel blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/~ybiofuels