Seaweed,

In a world that is starved for energy, food and commodities...farming will become more and more valued as the recent run-up in prices for energy, food and commodities prove out.

Someone grows the stuff and usually someone else processes the stuff. Its much harder to do both than to specialize in one. Screw processing it, just grow boatloads of it. If you can grow 100t/acre solids biomass with 66% carbs, that would be a massive amount of biogas for an AD system. Or a 10x the feedstocks weight/acre that corn can do for ethanol.

Moral of the story, if you build it-they will come. I agree that part of your job is to understand the markets your product can produce. But more importantly would be to offer industry the ability to have massive amounts of plain 'ol biomass. If you get me 100t/acre and be able to do that on a massive farm scale...industry will figure out 100's of ways to use your product.

To prove the point, I offer corn. The main reason ethanol has been able to work its way into the system so well is because of the massive ability of the US farmer to produce gobs of the stuff. The corn was there in massive amounts and industry is figuring out oodles of ways to use corn. There is nothing special about corn as a plant...just the gi-normous infrastructure that has surrounded the plant.

Froggy,

When I said that I could grow 23 plus metric tonnes of macroalgae in 22 tanks, the "footprint" for this tank farm is small. My tank farm is only 50' wide x 160' long, so for an acre??? a buttload of product! But who do I sell that to??? I have to have a buyer before I pursue that notion which, really is the problem at this point and for how much?????

I initially thought to grow Chondracanthus exasperatus as a carrageenan supplier and a variety of edible sea vegetables (seaweeds) for asian markets. The obvious thing going for me is that I can grow it in sand filtered, mechanically filtered and UV sterilized 28 ppt water with free nutrients. Although, when one of the interested investor said he could provide me free nutrients and water flow AND in an area that gets 300 plus days/year of sunshine; and asked me how many tanks I wanted, I told him 100 tanks. I thought biofuel! But you're right, I don't want to mess around extracting it. I like growing it.

I come from a 15 plus years Marine Fisheries Biologist background who has seen the world (via third world countries) and have seen the ecological/energy devestation @ a personal level and realized there has to be a better way! I thought of aquaculture and somewhere in the back of my mind I was very much interested in alternative energy but did not know how I was to meld the two. Now I have found out how but like everyone, I need a job to live but more importantly, I want to be part of the solution and not the problem. I know that is a cliche but it is true.

Sorry about the tangent but what I wanted to say is that I could grow a hell of a lot of macroalgae if I had an acre!

I have in the back of my mind those conversions of biomass and trying to figure out if I could grow enough for interested people or companies who would want it???

Have a good night,

Seaweedman

do you run into carageenan buyers questioning the health affects of produing this food supplement from treated wastewater?. I understand that you sterilize with UV rad. but maybe this is why you have found the gelatin market difficult to jump into. I would suggest looking at growing chondracanthous sp. on water taken from the ocean, not wastewater. You can use your other species to remediate sewage, and then turning them into ethanol through anaerobic digestion, then use the chondracanthous as your cash crop to fund your operation. Your still absorbing co2 , and managing nutrient waste whichever way you look at things. good luck!

JordanGVSU,

I haven't got to that point about the carrageenan buyers yet...I have been producing the carrageenan for a small cosmetic company who knows how I grow it and they seem to not have a problem with it; it's just that the company is very small and doesn't take as much as I would like them and in the process I am throwing away 90+ % of what I grow! They pay a decent amont of money for the tanks I have but I want to utilize everything I grow and all the hard work I put in to it. So that is why I was thinking about utilizing the rest of the tanks as brown seaweed for biofuel?? or just go into biofuel instead....But I am new at this and so I may ask some dumb questions...like; what would the conversion rate be for brown seaweed or kelp?? @ a metric tonne?? If you  or somebody would know I'd like to know or give me an idea where to look...I'd appreciate it.

 

Thanks,

Seaweedman

 

If you are serious about ur product, you need to have some analysis on your material. Approximate and ultimate analysis (those are the names of the tests) is the starting point of tests that needs to be done if your plan is to enter the bioenergy field. 

Once you have that info in hand...you will need to become "the expert" on the morphology, physiology and growth habit of that material that you plan to grow. Once you can answer those questions...you are ready to start talking to someone like cellulosic ethanol testing or anaerobic digestion testing to see who wants ur bioenergy feedstock. 

If you can really grow 100t/acre/year...and can answer alot of the questions above with data...you will have urself a very hot commodity indeed. Corn sells for ~ $4.50/60lbs bushel or $150/ton. Fuel grass such as Miscanthus or switchgrass can be had for roughly $80/ton. If you get urself under $50/ton...and can grow on farms all over the world...you will be doing urself and the world a huge favor.

Seaweedman,

 

I don't think you need to pay to have all those tests run or to know all that stuff Froggy wants you to learn and give lectures on.  If you can reliably produce an oil that can be used to make biodiesel, that is all they want to know.  

Since you know the species name of your algae, research (on the Web or in a technical libary) and find if someone has already run the analysis for you species.  If it is more than 10% lipid - keep going.  If it is less than 10% lipid, check the carbohydrates and look into selling to your local ethanol distiller.

If the books say more than 10%, you need to check if you are actually getting any oil.   If you  have a good way of doing that, use it.  If not, try this improvished procedure:  1. Harvest enough algae to half full a blender. 2. Blend thououghly.  3.  Mix in an equal volume of gasoline.  4.  Let stand for an hour.  5.  Decant the liquid into a shallow pan and leave in the sun (to evaporate the gasoline).   6.  What is left is the oil.  (CAUTION:  you are working with gasoline - it is dangerous - keep away from sparks and flame, especially when you are evaporating it.)  If you got more than a teaspoon of oil, feel it, try to burn it, and otherwise test it to convince yourself that it is oil.  If you convince yourself there is oil, then you need to find how to do a hexanne extraction, which is similar (and you can be more precise).

Probably, your species will not produce much oil.  You might research other species to see if you can find one that produces 20% oil.  I saw a rumor that there is one on the North East coast that, in the wild, produces a visible oil stain.

 

 

Froggy, Liberty1,

I've been busy looking into that info froggy talked about...I couldn't find the info on either cellulosic ethanol or anaerobic digestion testings...and afetr I thought about it Froggy, trying to understand 100t/acre/year is not the way to look at my operation because I'm dealing with volume instead of linear (across fields of land). If you want to know "footprint" of the number of tanks I can get into an acre I figured it out last night. It would be approximately 135 tanks/acre = at least, 135mt/yr. (This year is my best yet and I forsee much more). But I have been doing my homework and what I find concerns me....like, if at the most I can onlt get say $80/t then it would not be worth my while even if I do get several farms to "clean" the water which, it can and does. In the Phycocolloidal arena I can get a mininium of $1200/t....Also I have been seeing articles about the apparent glut of corn ethanol due to the non-exsistent suprastructure...that's not too appealing....

As for Liberty1, I do know that carrageenan is a polysaccharide chain of galatcans, thus sugar but I have not seen the % of what that may be. I have seen articles about brown seaweed...Laminaria spp. @ 57 to 60% but I haven't found that info for red seaweed yet.

As for my plants, I am pursuing a wide range of possibilities, considering that carrageenan is used in over 10,000 propriety brands and growing...I should find something as I watch the biofuel arena to see what happens.

Seaweedman

seaweedman:

Froggy, Liberty1,

I've been busy looking into that info froggy talked about...I couldn't find the info on either cellulosic ethanol or anaerobic digestion testings...and afetr I thought about it Froggy, trying to understand 100t/acre/year is not the way to look at my operation because I'm dealing with volume instead of linear (across fields of land). If you want to know "footprint" of the number of tanks I can get into an acre I figured it out last night. It would be approximately 135 tanks/acre = at least, 135mt/yr. (This year is my best yet and I forsee much more). But I have been doing my homework and what I find concerns me....like, if at the most I can onlt get say $80/t then it would not be worth my while even if I do get several farms to "clean" the water which, it can and does. In the Phycocolloidal arena I can get a mininium of $1200/t....Also I have been seeing articles about the apparent glut of corn ethanol due to the non-exsistent suprastructure...that's not too appealing....

Cellulosic ethanol doesnt exist so Im not suprised you couldnt find anyone but there are many groups that work on optimization of AD systems. Yes, you will need to pay for the test. No one is going to just throw ur biomass into their machine and how do you know what would happen anyhow?

As to not needing testing done on ur products...fine. But that isnt much of a business plan, sounds more like a hobby to me. Forewarned in forearmed.

And Im not sure about your point about volume vs linear feet. Sunlight only comes from one way. There is no difference between sq ft vs cu ft when it comes to sunlight on earth. That is like saying that a corn farmer needs to account for how high his corn was when the farmer sells it to the Co-op for 4.50$/bushel. The fact that you must account for the vol. (water tank) is not a benefit to your bottom line but the Co-op cares not.

135mt of solids per acre per year? I dont know where my calc's are but I think 135mt/acre/year would be a solar efficiency that is un-attainable, especially in the Pacific NW.  

Glut of corn eh? Not sure where you have been for the last few year but here is just 1 of 1000's articles saying the exact opposite of what you are saying. http://deltafarmpress.com/corn/070511-ethanol-crops/   an estimated 27% of the whole entire corn crop is going to ethanol fuel in 2007. And the corn fact has nothing to do with the fact that we are desperately trying to grow our way out of our energy crisis which aint going away.

Corn stover sells for under $50/ton and Miscanthus is expected to go for ~ $60/ton @ farmgate. Sugar cane grows over 25t/acre/year and you can buy cut grass for ~$20/ton and up depending on location in the world. IMO $80/ton would be optimistic for the energy market. $80/ton / 14mBTU/ton of dried solids = $5.71/mBTU. Coal is what, $1.50/mBTU?

Froggy,

No offense but it seems that you are coming from a aggressive attitude which, is counterproductive. The reason for these forums is to discuss problems and ideas about certain topics NOT for some sort of witch hunt....but It was YOU that mentioned cellulosic testing and now you said it doesn't exist??? Then you mention something about not paying for the test...I don't know where you came up with that notion...I know nothing is for free AND another misinformation you have about my notions is that I wouldn't want the testing or any testing done is again, wierd??? Where did you get these ideas??? I never said anything of the sort...It's obvious a smart and important notion to get products evaluated so one knows what they are dealing with.

As for misunderstanding about what I can grow /acre...which is not really how it should be looked at. The way I grow the macroalgae in tanks...they just don't "sit there" and float...they are grown in the "Tumble method" that has been around for several decades. This means they are constantly moving around the tank up and down. The plants are constantly moving around and trying to orient themselves towards the sunlight. In the process they grow multi-laterally thus, exponentially...THAT"S why I know for a fact that I could grow 135 mt /year because the tank system NOT with the acre concept. In aquaculture, one thinks in the number and size in gallons of tanks one has and how much "stock" can be grown in them...no one looks at it as per acre...so that is why I am stating fact that I could and will grow 135mt/yr.

As for the corn for biodiesel glut comment...I did not say there wasn't anyone growing it for biodiesel...what I was told by a concerned investor I have is that he saw that there wasn't an effiecent suprastructure in place to "move" the biomass around...I still have to find info on that...so that was why I said it in my last letter hoping that someone would have better concept of what is going on than I do or if he was misinformed??

I welcome all constructive comments good or bad but attacking me with comments I never said is counterproductive.

Froggy I think you can do constructive comments and was hoping you would continue instead of throwing bad moods around.

One question I had which you did not address and was hoping you or anyone could answer was where I could continue to look for answers of the carbo content of carrageenan...is this what I would look for as to the possible biofuel issue...if there is no info on that I know I could go get it tested and pay for it...

Sincerely,

Seaweedman

There was no 'bad mood' on my part, you miss-read my comments.

I'll let someone else answer your question.

 

Seaweedman,

I think Froggy may have been reacting to something I said, so I'll try to reply.

Many companies have been trying to perfect celloustic(SP?) ethanol.  None of them have been commercially successful, but the search continues.  I think Froggy was suggesting that, if any of them got it to work, you might ask them if they could use your seaweed.

I questioned the need for expensive tests.  I think Froggy was replying to me.

Per acre / Per gallon:

In grow fish or crayfish, gallons is important.  In growing macroalgae, per acre is important because, once the algae gets very far on the growth curve, it is self shading.  If your pond is 10 inches deep or 10 feet doesn't matter, since sunlight can only get through the first inch or so.  If, like microalgae, your larger alage only requires about 10% of full sun for full growth and you have them "tumbling", you should be able to grow more by going to a deeper tank.   There would probably be a limit here - assuming an idealised version that grows very regularily, that covers about half of the area it is in, that forms a layer every inch, and performs the perfect tumbling to put itself into and out of the sun - Then you need two inches deep to absorb all the sun and you need to rotate which ones are on top so they only get 10% sun - then the idealized solution would be 20 inches deep.   So you would be correct that you could grow twice as much in a 20 inch deep tank as in a 10 inch deep tank.  But if you made a 6 foot deep tank, it would not grow much more thatn the 20 inch deep tank.  (That was just a theoritical cut at the depth issue - I have no idea what your ideal depth would be, but once you find that, making a tank twice that depth would not increase your yield.)  So I really think that both per acre and per gallon will be important for your big algae,  but there is a limit to growing more by making the tank deeper.  That limit may be more than the practical limits for building tanks, so this concept may not mean much to your operation.

There have been some suggestions that the oil be pressed out of the corn and used for making biodiesel.  I don't think anyone is doing it commercially.  It might reduce the selling price for the DDG so much that it is not economic to do. 

What the investor was talking about was either of two problems - trucking the corn to the refinery - trucking the ethanol to the gas station.  Refinerys are being built everywhere corn is grown, so I don't think that is what he was talking about.  Ethanol is difficult to transport because it assorbs water and the result is corrosive.  So I think it has to be transported in stainless steel tanks.  It can not be sent throught the normal pipelines that are used for gasoline.  The pipelines are very efficient compared to trucking. So that is a problem for ethanol.  That may be the problem of the infrastructure for moving the biomass around.

I would think there probably is a research report on the carb content of carregeenan(SP?).  But I would think that would be of only acedemic interest to you.  There are probably carbs that are not in the carregeenan.  So if you were going to sell it to someone based on the carb content, you would want to know the carb content of the whole plant, not just in one part of it.  

  

 

Liberty1,

In reference to growing macroalgae like my system is set up, I understand where you are coming from with the depth of the tanks and the amount of sunlight available for the plants, especially when the density of biomass rises in the tanks...which, may be true especially in larger tanks or in ground pond with pond liners...But in the tumble method with my size tanks that's not an issue until the biomass reaches a certain load limit. My tanks are 15' long x 40" deep x 5' wide and are rounded at all corners. This facilitates the water flow in the tank from the air diffuser bar located at the bottom and in the middle. The plants are constantly moving from the top to the bottom and as they go downwards along the sides they are still absorbing sunshine until approx. 1' deep. (This is as far as I want to go as to how I can tweak the system because I have perfected alot of other methods from this basic tank design and I don't want to give away all my secrets). The plants can efficiently and rapidly grow to close to 4-5%/day at this time of the year. My data is based upon a 21 day rotation cycle. Therefore, I put 40.0 kgs in a tank and by the time I get back to it there is close to 85.00kgs and quite often up to 95.0 kgs!...But this is where you were talking about comes to reality...when the tank has approx., 75.0 kgs I notice the tank has reached it's capacity and the plants stop tumbling as well as when there is say; 55.0 kgs in it. Last year during the summer I had a cultivar that produced almost 9% growth rate/day!! That was the best I was ever able to do, usually it is approx. 5-6.5%/day.

As for my original question about brown algae, I heard that it is methane that can be derived from it...I was wondering if there is any info out there that tells the most amount from which spp it can be extracted from and what that may be worth...whether it would be worth my while to grow it because I have grown a few varieties of brown macroalgae in the past just to see if I could grow it...and they did well in my system....but I've decided to grow a wide range of spp for wide ranging markets.

Anyhow, I just wanted to say that,

Thanks Liberty1,

Have a good day,

Seaweedman 

seaweedman:

... I understand where you are coming from with the depth of the tanks and the amount of sunlight available for the plants, especially when the density of biomass rises in the tanks... My tanks are 15' long x 40" deep x 5' wide... The plants are constantly moving from the top to the bottom and as they go downwards along the sides they are still absorbing sunshine until approx. 1' deep... etc. 

 

Hi seaweedman, I've been following this thread for awhile and have found it quite interesting.  Would it be possible to go to a deeper tank or to increase the depth of your growth if you used something like a number of light pipes (as in Solatube) spaced down the center of the tank but instead of using polished metal for the tube use a clear plastic material that would distribute the light down to the bottom?  Then perhaps you could use polished stainless steel along the bottom of the tank to help reflect the light back up through towards the surface.

ForestZen,

Hi...nice name..I've actually been there many times..it's a great place and close to my heart.  Funny that you mention about a grow light in the tank...I thought about it but with funding being extremely limited..quite frankly I couldn't get around to it. But yes I agree, I was thinking about some sort of flourescent grow light like you can get at Home Depot and then place it into a water tight case (something I would have to make and hope it works)with a deflector shield on the bottm and somehow rig it that it would be above the air bar so I wouldn't disturb the water flow that it creates. That way I would have "sunshine" at both ends sort of speak..would be great to see what kind of growth rates I could get from that setup!

Which brings me back to growing Laminaria spp for biodiesel... but from the figures Froggy was saying I am wondering if it would be worthwhile to grow macroalgae for such an endeavor??? To grow macroalgae for a Hydrocolloidal company I could get $1200/mt; but that too isn't too appietizing...I am thinking instead of growing for sea vegetable market and then eventually go into other arenas...who knows???

Have a good day,

Seaweedman

Hey swm, how's it going.

Have spent a few hours googling seaweed and have not come up with any comments on extracting oils suitable for biodiesel yet. Making Ethanol and Methane gas would be fairly straight forward for your operation. Grow your seaweed, extract your cash extracts and either sell the biomass to another party to ferment or contract with them to make ethanol on your behalf. Either way it brings in more $$$$$.

I seem to read between the lines that sea weed growth is seasonal so like other crops you will probably have good times and bad times. Would you use your tanks for growing other stuff if you do have an off season?? 

The tanks are probably to deep to be used for microalgae but there are other things that have a ready market such as sea cucumbers - asian market loves them.

Hi Slippery,

The info I recently gathered about seaweed extraction involves removing the hydrocarbons such as, methane but I wonder how much trouble that would be...especially since there is a biodiesel company in Seattle that would hopfully take it. I want to grow macroalgae and over the years I perfected methods along with enhancing the tank design to be able to grow buttloads of it....I like the idea of using it to run vehicles but I don't think I will have the time or the facility to do it??

Microalgae wouldn't work even if the tanks were not as deep because the strong water agitation from the air diffuser bar in my tanks would cause the CO2 to dissipate rather rapidly...at least I think so. As for the so-called "down time" due to seasons, I don't have that. I produce year round and my plants are all males therefore, they are in a perpetual vegetative state. But yes, due to light limitations I have in this part of Puget Sound, my crop dwindles down and growth rates drop but I still have several metric tonnes throughout the winter months. But within this year I won't have that problem anymore due to me moving the farm into a "banana belt" or microcosm where the is 300 plus days/yr of sun with milder climate than what I have been use to here where the farm is located. Actually, I have been re-evaluating the tonnage I can grow that I told Froggy & Liberty1 because of this move, I'll actually be able to grow much more.

But I agree with you, I thought about other things to grow. You mentioned sea cucumbers and I thought sea urchins. It could be done. I have some info about how they could be raised and it would not be too hard to construct the tanks to raise them in and I have a cultivar that abalones seem to like to eat...at least on the trials so far.

Anyhow, I just wanted to write this...it's been a long day for me...

Have a good day,

Seaweedman

Hi again Seaweedman!

 Now don't be telling too many folks how nice it is up here.  This is more of what I had in mind to get more light into the tank (no electricity required):

http://www.solatube.com/res_edu.php

Except to use a transparent plastic material instead of reflective metal in the vertically mounted light pipes.

Good Morning ForestZen,

Oh Yeah, I've seen these before...interesting thought???...I would have to modify them in such a way as to them having a closed transparent end so the macroalgae doesn't get caught up into the tubes or IF possible without diminishing the light capability, when the tubes get to a required depth ( just above the air bar) that it turns and goes horizontal down the length of the tank??..or something?

But if I did that then somehow I would have to make the diameter of the solatube with a smaller diameter because then it would affect the water flow in the tanks and then possibly create a "dead zone" in the middle of the tank above the air bar??

Have a good day,

Seaweedman

Hi JordanGVSU,

 

I just realized taht I never really answered your question about treating sewage with my macroalgae...I may have mis-represented my growing parameters. It's not quite sewage as you may envision, it's seawater (actually slightly brackish) that is pumped from Puget Sound and NOT sewage. There is the addition of fish waste & CO2 through respiration of the fish biomass that is added to the water. The plants absorb the nutrients & CO2 and cleans the water producing clean oxygenated water. If one would look into my tanks, one would see beautiful clean water NOT sewage or not the concept of sewage treatment plants sewage/water.

Have a good day,

Seaweedman 

Hi Seaweedman, I stumbled on this forum and I just signed in so I am rather new to the topic, but I wrestled with the same question you had: Can one make oil or biodiesel from floating macroalgae like duckweed? I have followed the thread, which was absolutely great reading, but sofar I only found that this is probably not the case.

Checking the other hits in my search engine's list however gave a link that was very interesting and related to some issues treated on in earlier posts so I decided to list it here:

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/X6862E/X6862E01.htm 

Go to the bottom and use the arrows to take you to chapter three that lists common floating plants and their proximate analysis. It shows water hyacinth contains some 4% fat/oil based on solids. The listing is enormous (and continues on the next page) but sofar no sign of my duckweed data.

I hopes this helps. I'll check in later as I have seen there is a lot to be learned and I am quite new to this....