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  • 03-09-2008 04:57 PM

    • natescape
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 01-14-2002
    • Between Providence and Cape Cod
    • Posts 4,779

    Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Really interesting story here by Piedmont Biofuels about their journey in the world of making biodiesel. Link here.

    Going Global?

    The bioidesel business is simple.

    When feedstocks are traded in the “teens per pound” range, those of us who make biodiesel look like geniuses. As prices edge into the twenties, we look less interesting. And when feedstock cost exceeds thirty cents a pound we look like fools.

    When we fired up our Industrial facility, virgin soybean oil was in the teens. Soybean oil is easy to work with, it is processed locally in Raleigh and Fayetteville, and North Carolina has over a million acres of soybeans under cultivation.

    If we forgot about our aversion to genetically modified organisms, or about the effect of monocrops on the environment-and if we looked the other way whenever we see the massive petroleum subsidy which is embedded into conventional agriculture, local soy oil looked pretty good.

    It is the soy industry, after all, which invented the biodiesel industry in this country. As a land without an oilseed industry of our own, soy will have to do. We’ve been hard on soy, and we’ve used it to make biodiesel, which we have shipped into our local market.

    The odd tanker load would head for Staten Island, or Charlotte, or up to our friends in Asheville, and we did slip a couple of loads off to Korea, but we rested easy with our vision of making local fuel from local resources to help power our community.

    But as soybean oil left the twenties and headed into the thirty five cent a pound range, we had to part ways with soy. We waved goodbye as soy left town as a viable biodiesel feestock.

    At which point we switched to chicken fat. That is easier said than done. The reality is that we re-plumbed portions of the plant, struggled with declining yields, re-tooled our recipe, made modifications in the lab, and figured it out. We are technically proud of that claim.

    Chicken fat is abundant in the Piedmont of North Carolina, it was thirteen cents a pound, and we got it to work as a viable biodiesel feedstock.

    If we forget about our contempt for meat as a converter of energy, or our distaste for the way conventional chicken meat is produced-from the bird to the worker to the consumer, local chicken looks pretty good. Not to eat-but to transesterify.

    Our logic was: Better to make local fuel from local feedstocks than to close the plant down due to the high cost of soy.

    But when waste chicken fat started bumping around in the high twenties, we went looking for another alternative feedstock.

    We began the switch to waste vegetable oil. We have always made fuel out of waste vegetable oil. But not in Industrial quantities. When we ran afoul of the vegans for using chicken fat, we directed them to the Coop where fuel has always been waste vegetable oil derived.

    Waste vegetable oil is still in the teens. And it is easy to love.

    We do need to forget about its effect on human health, and that industrial quantities of waste vegetable oil tends to come from far away.

    While we were waving goodbye to chicken, we began re-tooling our operation over to waste vegetable oil. That’s not trivial. New tanks, a new heat source, a new recipe, new processes to put in place-but all in the realm of the possible.

    We started buying loads in Virginia, and D.C., and struck up relationships with waste vegetable oil sources up and down the eastern seaboard.

    Our logic was: Better to make local fuel from far away feedstocks than to shutter the plant due to the high cost of chicken.

    And just as we were in the midst of creating our waste vegetable oil procurement and processing strategy, Europe knocked on the door, wanting to buy every drop of chicken derived biodiesel we could turn out.

    Suddenly we were introduced to “tolled manufacturing,” in which the customer owns all of the liquids in the plant, and we merely make the fuel on a “cost plus” basis. We were offered a deal in which if we want to buy biodiesel from our plant, we get to buy it from the customer.

    This was a stunner. While it was long way away from what we set out to accomplish, it appeared to offer us financial stability, and isolate us from the fickle feedstock markets. The same ones which have been inviting us into the thirties and buffeting us about.

    To ship biodiesel to Europe is a different game. We had to jump over some bars which were put before us. The first was fuel quality. 5 full slate assays-more than we usually get in a year. The second was terminal operations, needing to turn a tanker in a set amount of time. The third was lab. Our lab was centered on ASTM specifications, and we needed to convert to EN methods and specs. Now we can do both.

    And finally, there was a site inspection, which we tend to pass in our sleep. That is, if we can get wet absorbent swept up while everyone is asleep.

    And after clearing every bar, we started shipping full time to Europe.

    Our logic was: Better to make fuel from local feedstocks and ship to far away markets than to hand the keys to the bank.

    We hired two new fuel makers, got noticed by our local Economic Development folks, and have been running around the clock making product for Europe. Students of the global economy will give a nod and a wink to a faltering U.S. dollar. People shopping in euros today can handle higher priced feedstocks.

    Although we have long been proponents of our local economy, we never set out to help America right its balance of trade. Occasionally we mention the U.S. flag, but we don’t tend to wrap ourselves in it. Perhaps we are part of “America’s manufacturing comeback.”

    And shipping to Europe is not what any of us set out to do.

    Not wanting to lose our toehold on biodiesel derived from waste vegetable oil, we have re-tooled a biodiesel plant in the next county over. We’ve diverted feedstocks that way, and we hope to have on-spec fuel coming off the line this weekend.

    Our logic was: Better to keep making local fuel for the local market than to abandon our dreams entirely.

    Right now we are in the midst of building our bio-refinery, so that we can enter the glycerin markets in earnest. When that is finished, we will build a waste vegetable oil plant onsite. And in the meantime, we will continue to work with other small scale producers who want us to “toll” their plants.

    And we will continue our quest for a viable way to power our community with locally made fuel from local feedstocks…

  • 03-11-2008 12:53 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Hi,

     Well the good news is,  if the big guys suck up all the WVO then at least I know how to make homebrew with chicken fat !  :)

    The chicken fat part,  I did not see coming !

    Love chicken on the grill !

    P.S. I don't want to burst anyone's bubble but was any of that WVO used to fry wings ?

    Isn't that why the exhaust smells so good ?  :)   Everytime I stop at a light it smells like BBQ ! ! ! :)

    Thanks, Steve

    Greengirl Labs Florida USA Home of the Canoe Paddle Processor http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/19664.aspx
  • 03-11-2008 04:05 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Fascinating evolution. 

    This comment has been crossposted at AT&T: 611 Folsom Street, San Francisco, CA -- Room 641A. '05 Liberty '83 240D
  • 03-11-2008 04:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Let me get this straight, US citizens pays you subsidies so you can make Bio fuel for Europe who cannot afford to compete because they have higher taxes on local production. Does that sound about right?
    Dereck In Texas
  • 03-11-2008 05:09 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    dereckbc:
    Let me get this straight, US citizens pays you subsidies so you can make Bio fuel for Europe who cannot afford to compete because they have higher taxes on local production. Does that sound about right?

    You forgot about the weak $.
    Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. Id rather die of cholesterol from all the butter Im making and selling... froggy in Wisconsin
  • 03-11-2008 05:17 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Who wrote that first post ?

    It hurts my brain !  :(

    Greengirl Labs Florida USA Home of the Canoe Paddle Processor http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/19664.aspx
  • 03-11-2008 05:17 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    froggy:

    You forgot about the weak $.

    I did not forget, just did not mention it. UK has been complianing for a couple of years now about US made BD because they cannot compete since the US Government subsidizes it, and wants to put an import tarrif tax on US BD to stop it. So the way I see it US taxpayers are now paying for UK fuel use. Smart, very smart.

    Dereck In Texas
  • 03-11-2008 05:23 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    dereckbc:
        I did not forget, just did not mention it.

    This is a pretty big political football in Germany right now.

    And to boot, imagine if you will that these biod and ethanol companies are using NG to power the plant, yet they call themselves green energy. IMO their carbon footprint should be calculated on the amount the factory produces  - the amount the factory burns of fossils  = their green credit.

    Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. Id rather die of cholesterol from all the butter Im making and selling... froggy in Wisconsin
  • 03-12-2008 08:05 AM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Hi natescape,

    Who wrote the first post ?    It is a very interesting warning ! ! !

    Our troops are fighting and dying to keep the middle east oil flowing and we are sending our biodiesel to Europe ? ? ?

    I still can't believe it ! ! !   :(  :(  :(  

    That first post is the craziest post about biodiesel I have ever read ! ! !

    Is it common for you to post CRAZY stuff like that and not say who wrote it ?

    That first post explains why our country is in the bad shape it is in right now ! ! !

    We are at war and people just don't care ! ! !

    I am also freaked out that so few are making comments !  Little outrage that the big guys are sucking up the WVO and sending it to Europe ! ! !

    Learn to make biodiesel with chicken fat fellas ! ! !   You can do it in the Canoe Paddle Processor.

    I have not tried it in an appleseed. Has anyone tried ?

    Thanks, Steve

    Greengirl Labs Florida USA Home of the Canoe Paddle Processor http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/19664.aspx
  • 03-12-2008 08:37 AM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    stephend:
       Is it common for you to post CRAZY stuff like that and not say who wrote it ?

    Hi Stephen,

    If you re-read Nate's post, it clearly links the post and states that Piedmont wrote the article (in reality, it should be called PR). I quote my friend Nate,

    natescape:

    Really interesting story here by Piedmont Biofuels about their journey in the world of making biodiesel. Link here.

    Going Global?  

    Additionally, if you read the PR, its written in first person. Our, we, etc...

    Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. Id rather die of cholesterol from all the butter Im making and selling... froggy in Wisconsin
  • 03-12-2008 08:40 AM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    stephend:

    Hi natescape,

    Who wrote the first post ?    It is a very interesting warning ! ! !

    Our troops are fighting and dying to keep the middle east oil flowing and we are sending our biodiesel to Europe ? ? ?

    I still can't believe it ! ! !   :(  :(  :(  

    That first post is the craziest post about biodiesel I have ever read ! ! !

    Is it common for you to post CRAZY stuff like that and not say who wrote it ?

    That first post explains why our country is in the bad shape it is in right now ! ! !

    We are at war and people just don't care ! ! !

    I am also freaked out that so few are making comments !  Little outrage that the big guys are sucking up the WVO and sending it to Europe ! ! !

    Learn to make biodiesel with chicken fat fellas ! ! !   You can do it in the Canoe Paddle Processor.

    I have not tried it in an appleseed. Has anyone tried ?

    Thanks, Steve

    Im curious Steve, are you selling these 'canoe paddle processors'?

     

    Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. Id rather die of cholesterol from all the butter Im making and selling... froggy in Wisconsin
  • 03-12-2008 08:42 AM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Hi froggy,

    I sometimes use the words we and us.  It is still plain who is writing.

    I am to believe that all the people at Piedmont Biofuels wrote that or feel that way ?

    Surely this can not be ! ! !

    Thanks, Steve

    P.S.  NEVER have I asked a fellow homebrewer for money !

    Not for WVO, methanol, lye, info or help building a setup !   NEVER ! ! !

    I give more WVO away than I use ! ! !

    I have also answered all my emails and online questions and work hard to keep up.

    Thanks, Steve

     

    P.S.S.   remember this warning fellas:    If you want to homebrew biodiesel you might want to start learning how to make it out of chicken fat and trap grease and such ! ! !

    Greengirl Labs Florida USA Home of the Canoe Paddle Processor http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/19664.aspx
  • 03-12-2008 10:18 AM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    stephend:
      I sometimes use the words we and us.  
    That is because you are in the first person. If Decarte was in a group, he would have said, 'we think, therefore we are'.
    stephend:
      It is still plain who is writing [?] 
    Yes, to anyone that can read and understand the english language.
    stephend:
      I am to believe that all the people at Piedmont Biofuels wrote that or feel that way ?

    Surely this can not be ! ! !

    Seeing as tho its on Piedmont's very own website, I think you would have to ask that question to the CEO of Piedmont.
    stephend:
     

    P.S.  NEVER have I asked a fellow homebrewer for money !

      Not sure that answered my question as to if you sell this to the public?
    stephend:

    P.S.S.   remember this warning fellas:    If you want to homebrew biodiesel you might want to start learning how to make it out of chicken fat and trap grease and such ! ! ! 

    Thanks for the warning. Do you have a way to produce biodiesel out of trap grease?

    And what makes you think that if you can make biodiesel out of 'chicken fat and trap grease and such ! ! ! '   that the very same people that will be taking up 'all' the WVO, wont be also taking that stuff up? Seems that you havnt slipped all the way down your slipyslope.

    Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. Id rather die of cholesterol from all the butter Im making and selling... froggy in Wisconsin
  • 03-12-2008 10:21 AM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Hi froggy,

    They will leave that stuff for us for a while !   Just like the WVO used to be.  It used to be free.  Now everyone is paying !

    You can do it in the Canoe Paddle Processor ! ! !  :)

    They have to do large batches fast and it is harder for them to make a profit with chicken fat and such.

    If you do smaller batches with care it is not so bad !  :)

    I am here for you !  :)

    Thanks, Steve

     

    EDIT : greengirl corrected me on my last line.

    We are here for you !  :)

    Greengirl Labs Florida USA Home of the Canoe Paddle Processor http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/19664.aspx
  • 03-12-2008 11:33 AM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Hi froggy,

    You added more stuff now I have to answer.

    I looked at that website for hours before I asked that question.  I can not figure out who wrote it from their website.   I did not ask before I looked.    I asked twice and no answer at all ?

    Who ever wrote that is on my list.  Not Piedmont Biofuels but who ever wrote that ! ! !

    No the Canoe Paddle Processor is not for sale and has never been. It is real easy to make one.  I showed you how !  :)    Why in the world would someone buy one ?   You get the stuff at Lowe's.

    Not only that but you can come online on this website and ask us questions about how to use it and we will be happy to answer in public !  No P.M.s needed !

    The Canoe Paddle Processor's home and all support is on BiodieselNow.   BiodieselNow is homebrew headquarters. That is where the Canoe Paddle Processor belongs !  :)

    Is that selling it ?

    Thanks, Steve

    Greengirl Labs Florida USA Home of the Canoe Paddle Processor http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/19664.aspx
  • 03-12-2008 05:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    dereckbc:

    I did not forget, just did not mention it. UK has been complianing for a couple of years now about US made BD because they cannot compete since the US Government subsidizes it, and wants to put an import tarrif tax on US BD to stop it. So the way I see it US taxpayers are now paying for UK fuel use. Smart, very smart.

    Dereck

    It is not the UK that is complaining, it is the whole of Europe. I don't think there are any big imports of biodiesel from the US into the UK at the moment but there has been about a million tonnes imported into Europe over the last year (only 90,000 tonnes the year before). As far as I know the European Biodiesel Board have (or are going to) put in a formal complaint to the WTO or similar to get the system changed or impose some form of import duty.

    It is quite amusing to think that the US tax payer is happy subsidizing the EU biodiesel indiustry without even being aware of it. I did hear on the grapevine that US legislation was going to change so that the rebate would not be allowed on exports. The only down side of this is that it will probably close more US biodiesel production plants if th feedstock price does not cme down soon.

    I am not sure the EBB will achieve anything with their complaint but we will have to see.

  • 03-12-2008 06:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    The 2007 Energy Bill closed the subsidizing of exported biodiesel. The HR verbage" 

     “No biodiesel credit shall be determined under this section with respect to any biodiesel unless such biodiesel is produced in the United States for consumption in the United States or is entered into the United States for consumption in the United States.”

    It is still legal to export it, but no tax credit for it.

    Martin 

  • 03-12-2008 06:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    stephend:

    Our troops are fighting and dying to keep the middle east oil flowing and we are sending our biodiesel to Europe ? ? ?

    I still can't believe it ! ! !   :(  :(  :(  

     

    Stay clam, but the US exports 1.3 million barrels of petro(crude & product) every day.

    Source EIA. Heres a link.

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_sum_sndw_dcus_nus_4.htm

    Martin 

  • 03-12-2008 06:59 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    Stop the insanity. Quit subsidizing alternate fuels and let the Market decide. The Market will not forgive mistakes and will not take prisoners under any circumstances or excuses.
    Dereck In Texas
  • 03-12-2008 07:10 PM In reply to

    Re: Piedmont Biofuels story... an interesting warning?

    dereckbc:
    Stop the insanity. Quit subsidizing alternate fuels and let the Market decide. The Market will not forgive mistakes and will not take prisoners under any circumstances or excuses.
    OK, fair is fair.  Stop subsidies to petroleum and let us pay market price for it, and let that compete head to head with alternative energies.  Let's start by charging oil companies fair market price to secure the sources of crude.

    This comment has been crossposted at AT&T: 611 Folsom Street, San Francisco, CA -- Room 641A. '05 Liberty '83 240D
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